To think db and his gf should put thier children above saving the planet???

[lillycat]

My db (32) has always been a bit of a drifter, he has never really held down a job or anything and travels a lot round the country. It was never really an issue for me, he is an adult and can do what he likes, but he fell out with our parents years ago over it. He has recently been trying to make things up with then and has been to visit, and brought his new gf who has two ds from two fathers. She is younger (24) and has a council flat but spends most of the time living in a van with her ds who are 5 and 3.
Her and db are now traveling around together and seem to be spanding most of their time on road protests (I didnt even know there were any anymore but they have found some) and things like that, and doing anti war and anti nuclear campaigning - db gets arrested every now and then which can't be good for young boys to see as an example imo.

Anyway me and my parents are a bit concerned about her ds - they don't go to school obviuosly but they dont get taught by their mum either it seems - the 5yo can't write his name even. The children are filthy as well, dressed in tatty old clothes all the time and have quite long hair which does look lovely but needs washing and brushing which doesn't happen really. Both db and gf have a dog so the children are sharing their beds in the van with two dogs. They are lovely children, really bright and sweet but they swear a lot which the mum doesn't seem to mind and they have no routines at all- they get taken to parties and kept up late. Thir mum still has a double buggy that they sleep in if they are out late. Also they are vegan and are both quite small, but they do get fed healthy food and she doesnt let them have sweets and fizzy pop. She seems to worry about strange things - I'd be more worried about my dc getting an education than being vegan iyswim?

Dh thinks its none of our business to say anyhting as the kids are obviously loved and looked after, just not to the same standards we keep . But I just cant help thinking that once you ahve kids its time to grow up and put them first?

Well, it sounds a bit like my children's lives when they were younger, travelling around with ex h. They were always dirty, had very few toys, and got great experiences that most children dont have.

However, there is an upper limit to this. dd started hating it when she was around 8, and realised that other girls had clean clothes. When ds1 came back to me, he was miles out in his schoolwork. He actually likes being in school now, and dreads being hoiked out again by ex h.

The children are not being abused, so you cant interfere, but I can see why the OP is uneasy.

Being seriously anti-school and anti-police (IF indeed they are) is forcing children into an extremely insular way of life that is diametrically opposed to the way this country works and IF the children don't receive schooling for years or follow DBs example and get arrested they may find it very hard to choose another way of life in the future should they want to. Being vegan, living in a van, or not brushing your hair just isn't an issue.

(Though I do have a vegan friend who decided, after reading all the literature, that her children should not be given a vegan diet. Her reasoning was that although it is possible for them to get all the nutrients a growing child needs on a vegan diet, you do have to be quite careful about iron, calcium and B vitamins.)

Nighbynight has hit the nail on the head about the upper limit.

FWIW I also think that a kind of test of good parenting is how you deal with it when the DC are old enough to want something different for themselves. But that would also apply to people who (for instance) cram their DCs days with 'improving' activities, or superstitious ritual (place of worship 3 times a week or something when the DC are demonstrably bored) or refuse to allow them any 'modern culture because it's all trash'.

madamez, yes those are all narrow minded and intolerant parents you describe.

I think they sound fab. Wish I had the gumption to do something like that and get rid of all this 'stuff'.

And, from the HE perspective, she doesn't need to 'de-reg' her children if they've never been in the system in the first place, which seems likely. And good for her.

madamez - I wouldn't worry about cannbis, but I would worry about ketamine, speed, heroin and Special Brew to be honest which ARE very prevalant on Traveller sites. People have already mentioned on this thread that drug and alcohol abuse is a problem among travellers!! Even if the parents aren't using then the children are likely to be coming into contact with those who are, at these parties or on traveller sites. And how do you think these people earn a living? Yes, mainly through dealing drugs or by breaking into empty buildings to steal metal to be sold as scrap.

erm21 - that's a libellous thing to say. Travellers are not all drugs dealers or thieves. You're a horrible bigot

Oh lol at the underlying prissy perfectionism in the OP!

Fgs this is NONE of your business and you are judging the world, and most especially your db and family, by your own ridiculous standards.

Education is not the same as literacy or academia - though it often includes these things - thus, they will be receiving an education just by living and being shown new things and gaining new experiences.

spicemonster - yes, not all - but much more than the general population.

"And how do you think these people earn a living? Yes, mainly through dealing drugs or by breaking into empty buildings to steal metal to be sold as scrap."

I'm sorry, I seem to have stumbled onto a Daily Mail 'feature' by mistake. PMSL.

Christ and a biscuit

I find that sort of comment really, really offensive. It perpetuates myths and stereotypes that simply are not the case for the majority.

There are twats out there whatever lifestyle you choose to lead.

a link here about travellers and literacy Most of the articles seem more relevant to gypsy travellers. I was shocked by the Guardian piece about prejudice. I don't think I'd go to school if I was having bricks thrown at me.

The children are a bit too young to be really worrying about 'academic standards' though.

I'm sorry yurt but I'm talking from my own experience. It's fine to have a romantic notion of what travellers are like if you've never had to live on site, but it's not borne out in reality. The travelling scene was destroyed by heroin and the CJA in the early nineties and hasn't recovered - it's not all harmless hippies living in rainbow buses anymore.

erm21 - I don't have a 'romantic' notion about travellers at all. If you know so much about travellers, you'll know that quite a few of them are excellent caring parents. If you want a reasoned discussion, don't make wild sweeping generalisations.

agree with spicemonster. The link I gave was hardly 'romantic' either but they all deal drugs and steal scrap metal is a bit- sweeping.

They may be excellent and caring, but it's still irresponsible to put children in unpredictable, unsafe situations.

'unsafe' - that's a bit of a leap as well. How many sweeping generalisations can you make (and would love to know what you do- my guess is social worker).

TBH I do think the OP is getting a hard time. She is just concerned about the children. She could totally ignore her brother, his girlfriend and her children and get on with her own insular (but probably rather busy) little life, but she is thinking about the future of these children. And, yes, of course, there are loads on examples of children who just slot into the school system several years behind and come out with 4 a-levels, but there must be just as many that can't catch up and end up truanting, dropping out etc.

No, not a social worker - just someone who has lived on site and seen an awful lot of messed up things and wouldn't want to put any child in that situation.

But not every site/protest group is the same surely?

My view of travellers is similarly unromantic, having lived as one myself.

There are indeed sites and squats where I would not take a child. But there are places in mainstream society where I would never take a child - plenty of drug dealers have houses. Plenty of pubs are very rough.

The CJA and heroin were disasters for the travelling community, but there are still many people travelling who are not criminals. If the family mentioned in the OP are not drug users/dealers/heavy drinkers
(which it sounds like they are not) then they are unlikely to be sending a lot of time with the brew crew - its pretty grim to watch if you are not part of it IME.

bozza is right - I'm sure some children do manage to go to school, and some may be home educated really well, but I know plenty who truant, get in fights at school because of where they come from, are "home-schooled" but in realtiy barely taught to read and write by their parents, and spend their time going to parties and taking drugs like their parents, or worse.

I wonder how those kids will feel the first time someone they know dies of a smack overdose? I bet that will be a wonderful learning experience for them too.

Protest sites do not (IME - there may be exceptions) tolerate heroin use on site. Drugs are often part of life for many people there, but addiction is rare. They do tend to self-police better than you might expect - I have seen someone made to leave a site after it was discovered he was injecting drugs there.

Anyone who exposes their children to serious drug taking, is an irresponsible twat, traveller or not. But I think the same of anyone who breaks the speed limit with their kids in the car - behaviour that is certainly not limited to travellers.