Landlords are hated but

[Parsley1234]

I am a landlord tenants been in situ for over 10 years very happily in a character Victorian terrace rent raises minimum I leave them alone get repairs done in a timely manner however from 2028 I will have to either sell holiday let or leave vacant the property as the modifications are untenable for me. Double glazing adding internal walls to make small rooms smaller etc. We are in a housing crisis this is going to make it worse and for all of you who want to have a go at landlords maybe look at the government housing policy first

Onthefencesitter

Also true...

www.propertyguru.com.sg/property-guides/all-you-need-to-know-about-executive-condo-in-singapore-35340

What Is an Executive Condo (EC)?
Known as the “sandwich flat”, an EC is a public-private housing hybrid catered for middle-income Singaporeans who don’t qualify for an HDB flat due to the income ceiling cap, but still consider private condominiums too expensive.
ECs are developed and sold by private developers but are subsidised by the government. As such, while they have condo-like attributes such as swimming pools, gyms, clubhouse and better design, they are cheaper compared to private condos. As former National Development Minister Khaw Boon Wan puts it, it’s like buying a Lexus at the price of a Corolla.
The flip side of being a hybrid development however, is that ECs are considered HDB properties for the first 10 years, which means they’re bounded by HDB’s rules. These include the 5-year Minimum Occupancy Period (MOP) rule, HDB’s various eligibility schemes, HDB’s selling restrictions and the resale levy (if you’re buying it from a developer).
However, once ECs hit their 11th year, they will be privatised – and that’s when they truly shine; because now you can sell it to a bigger pool of buyers.

So executive condos are not exactly built by the government but they are still subsidized and built for middle income Singaporeans who can't qualify for private hosting and it is protected in the sense that rich foreigners can't buy them (hence bringing down the price). The household income ceiling for a regular government apartment is the equivalent of £100k in Singapore and actually that is considered middle income in Singapore like in London.. I haven't heard any issues with the build of the housing, there isn't any cladding scandal. You are responsible for installing the interiors as government flats in Singapore are sold as a blank shell (though you can pay more to get the government to install the flooring, toilet etc). It would be very generic though so most people prefer to hire an interior designer.

Government housing in the UK doesn't need to be flats. It would depend on the location. 50% of Londoners (including me) live in flats. I bought a 1930s flat in London in 2019 and am now looking to upgrade to a 3 bed flat. I viewed another 1930s flat yesterday and the owner has lived in that flat for 40 years. It's a big 3 bed flat on the ground floor with garden access and it's set up like a traditional Jewish family home so I think unless the owners are 100 years old, they probably raised their family in that flat. I can see this would be a hard sell in the North or even in the home counties but the basic principle for any mass social housing project is that the housing would be what an average family would live in. In London, that's a flat. Outside London, it's a 3 bed terraced house.

My mother in law's 3 bed Victorian terrace in London is 1000 square feet. the average British home is 1000 square feet. The flat I am looking at buying in zone 3 north London (on ground floor with access to communal garden) is 102 square metres and is priced at £600k. A comparable house in the same area would be £800-950k so as you can see, the average ideal British house in a desirable London area is much more expensive than flats in Singapore or in London (even though it is the same size!)

Yes indeed if the housing in London could be sorted, it'd involve flats.

That further info about Singapore was absolutely fascinating, thank you! What a grown-up country it sounds (no doubt there are down sides).

So to bring the subject back onto topic with regards to the Victorian terrace is never going to make it up to a C rating. You realise in order for this to be an issue somebody is going to need to report the fact that your rental is not a C rating? If your tenants are perfectly happy with the situation, perfectly happy with their repairs being done and perfectly happy to just remain there they’re not exactly gonna phone up the local housing and make a complaint are they?
I know of several non-compliant electrical and gas situations with tenants and landlords where the tenants aren’t gonna say a bloody word because if they do they will just get kicked out.

When I visited Singapore once I leafed through a book about gardening in apartments (we spent a lot of time in air conditioned shops) and I remember the introduction referred to Singaporeans having to give up their private gardens when the population moved en masse into high rises.

I think it'd be a difficult sell politically outside London, and even in outer boroughs such as the one where I live.

I suppose the OP would run into problems if she wished to re-let, however.

No she would run into problems if she advertised it and used agency

Just checked the guidelines. Yes, it says house couldn’t be advertised with an agent unless it has an EPC of C or above.
I guess that means it could be advertised on FB Marketplace by the owner with an EPC of D. Are they then saying it’s not illegal to rent out a D house, just illegal to advertise it…🤔

No I think it is illegal to not have it see an above by the time the regulations come in but it’s also illegal to do a lot of things isn’t it?
not having a gas safety certificate for example is only ever gonna be a problem if the place blows up if it doesn’t well who’s gonna know.

Sorry when you say you’ve checked the guidelines they are guidelines ?

so not legal requirements then ?

there is a lot of nostalgia about kampung 'village' living in Singapore (mostly by people who have never lived in them!) its kinda like how we idealize blitz spirit. in the uk apparently in the old days, everyone could grow their own vegetables, everyone knew their neighbors, there was such community spirit etc etc etc

Most people in singapore did not live in private houses in 1965. they lived in wooden huts with no plumbing, no toilet and there was no protection against flood and fires. Its why they moved the population to the high rise flats cos at least even if you did not have your own garden, you at least had your own toilet and you were not likely to lose your roof overnight.

The issue isn't really about whether people should live in a flat or a house. Its about whether the state should provide decent housing for the majority of the population who cannot afford to buy housing on the private market without severely compromising their own standard of living. My grandparents in singapore bought their own terraced house with garden when there was no public housing scheme in Singapore (my grandfather used to have an aviary in his garden) but of course it was very hard. My grandparents were not wealthy; my grandfather was a teacher and my grandmother was a secretary. They basically couldn't live with their own children for 7 years because they had to work so hard to save the deposit and therefore sent their children to live with relatives while they worked long hours during the week. My grandmother always talks about how she cried when she had to leave her children on Sunday (but that was the price to pay for home ownership back in the days when home ownership was not subsidized). Thankfully no young singaporean today has to go through such torture just to have a roof over their head. Young singaporeans have the choice- they can buy private property if they can afford to or they can just buy a government flat. Or they can buy the government flat and upgrade to the private condo/house in later life.

This decision on the part of my grandparents is also the reason why no one in my dad's side of the family has ever bought government housing in the last 3 generation (this is mainly because my dad bought a house with my grandparents & because my uncle and myself moved overseas). But my father is always encouraging people to buy government housing because he believes that it is a good deal and young people should not spend so much time/energy/money on their primary residence

I believe there isn't enough public support for mass housing schemes because people are not in such desperate circumstances like my grandparents' generation in Singapore. However, one day, they might be and there might be more support then. If private rent rises to 90% of the average income combined with £4000 energy bills etc, then that might be a tipping point. Even home owners may not be safe if mortgage rates increase and houses are more expensive to heat than flats. Even for middle income families who own property, you would be more able to pay heating and electricity bills if you didn't need to spend so much money on a house. yes everyone wants to have a garden and a big house but if its a question of survival, then the variables are very different...

They are the proposed new regulations:
"The government has recently proposed new EPC regulations that will change the Minimum Energy Efficiency Standards, it's planned to take effect in 2025; these changes will impact the domestic rental property in England and Wales."

Just did a google. I think they will be legal requirements in the same way the current EPC Grade is a legal requirement. Same law; higher bar.

I did go to a council run event for private landlords when the proposals came out. The council wants to work with landlords because there is absolutely no housing stock otherwise.

An officer spoke about the importance of landlords applying for exemptions with Victorian terrace stock. (I posted them further up.)

The council also said they will NOT be advising changing to heat pumps because they are not more effective than combi boilers (and their environmental footprint was higher?). I can’t remember the details, but they were very clear about it.

@onthefencesitter what an interesting story! Thank you for taking the trouble to write all that out. I teach A-level Economics and it will help me to know more when I cover the relevant topics.

You might enjoy Lyndsey Hanley's book 'Estates' if you haven't already read it. I think you will see some parallels.

Back to the EPCs. I looked up my own house today and discovered it was rated D when we bought it, although as we've double glazed and replaced the boiler since then, presumably it'd be a C now, same as my rental. Do EPCs just stay lapsed till someone orders a new one?

The gap between the huge cost of the recommended measures and the tiny annual savings is striking though. You really need a big cash pile to.be green...

@Phineyj epcs are valid I think for ten years. You have to have a valid one if you rent out or sell

@Phineyj just read estates it was very informative
@Swashbuckled csn you apply for exemption regarding Victorian housing

@Phineyj so true about having a big pile in order to be green

Well I hope there is an exception because just looking at mine I have an insulated loft double glazing brand-new boiler LED lighting throughout I actually can do no more and it still a day. I spend about £2.50 a day at the moment on gas and electricity so not an enormous amount of money. I don’t know literally what else I could do

• Still a D rating

Yes, you can (and should). I don’t think there’s much point in applying now, as anything could happen. But there’s an application process online. Like a pp, I really do think they’ll drop this (or delay it) as we creep closer to the deadline. I mean, where will people live?

If they don’t, and when the time comes, I plan to ring the council office (“private sector housing officer” is the title) to ask to be reminded of the guidance for applying. The cost issue alone is listed in the exemptions currently. That seems like the most likely exemption, to me. Everyone is aware of the implications for Victorian terraces and that most cannot be brought up to a C.

I spoke to the officer in the coffee break of the event. One example she gave was that if I had to use insulation on the outside of a house, then this would devalue the house as it would alter the frontage (and make it odd compared to that if it’s neighbours). Also something about if the terrace went straight onto the pavement, there would be an issue with scaffolding blocking access. It’s hard to recall it all. I’ve been looking for the follow up docs in my mailbox but can’t find them….🙁

Government website on exemptions

www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-rented-sector-minimum-energy-efficiency-standard-exemptions/guidance-on-prs-exemptions-and-exemptions-register-evidence-requirements

^ PRS includes EPCs

So, Parsley1234, I think the internal wall insulation is a no-go. The £3500 per property ceiling would be busted by doing this in every room, especially with the replastering, refitting of electric sockets and the redecorating is factored in. Labour would be high. Cost of accommodation for tenants during the work also high (not that there is any). I also think it would not be advised in a Victorian property due to causing damp issues.
I think what your EPC chap has told you is very useful information and you could use this when you eventually apply for an exemption. No need to sell up 🙂.

@Swashbuckled thank you let’s see what happens yet another ill thought out government bullshit policy that bears no relation to anything in reality 🙏