MIL upset at me seeing DH's SIL & kids

[LiarLiarKnickersAblaze]

Sad circumstances in the family. Early last year, after a two year battle with depression, DH's father passed away by suicide. They live in a different country and this occurred across covid, and MIL didn't share with her two sons the ins and outs of what was happening with their father so it was a massive shock to them.

Fast forward to this year - June. There's always been tension between MIL and DH's SIL. They've been snipey/grumpy with each other for years. They both critique the other a lot, and it's simmered in the background. With her DH gone, MIL struggled to be as patient with her and snapped at her. The situation involved my daughter (I wasn't there) but apparently SIL made snipey comments to DD (7) when DH & DD visited e.g. should be eating pasta properly with sauce/her dd's did. MIL told SIL to "stop making negative comments about DD". It wasn't well-received, SIL was crying, her DH was cross.

MIL and BIL have chatted since & they have both shared lots of things they are feeling about the other. MIL's sister is ill at the moment so she told BIL she needed space.

Now it's August and I'm visiting with DH and DD. I suggested to DH that I take DD to see her cousins for a coffee/park play date as they are close. I asked if it would be OK and to check with his DM. He said it would be fine (I later find out he didn't check with her directly). We agreed as DD is an only, her relationship with her cousins is really important and she might not see them again until next year. It's nice for the girls and I will be there if SIL says anything snipey (I've only personally experienced her be a bit snipey once when dd was having a mega tantrum.) There was no expectation for DH (who has taken his mother's side and out of loyalty won't come) or DM to come.

I mentioned last night to her that I would be popping by for a coffee with DD to see her cousins. MIL was extremely upset, won't speak to us (only my DH when I'm not there), she went off for a drive to cool off. She says I have betrayed her as she was sticking up for DD (the argument isn't really about that - they have bigger issues & she says she is not ready to listen to her son's feelings about them). She says that none of us know what she's going through, she opened up about more scarring things that happened in the lead up to FIL's death/things he said. My DH came out of the conversation with her fragile and snipey to me but later apologised. I'm getting the silent treatment from MIL.

TBH I've always felt things between MIL and SIL are tense. I'm unsure whether to cancel seeing SIL & cousins. I hate all this arguing, MIL has said she doesn't want any pressure to heal the relationship so are we expected to stop the girls seeing each other until then? I was thinking of maybe popping by for an hour then picking DM some flowers up on the way back.

Perspective greatly appreciated. It's created a tense atmosphere in the house.

Is DH's family Italian by any chance? The reference to pasta makes me wonder... and Italian matriarchs have some pretty crazy high expectations of the family - especially DILs - from what I understand.

Tell your MIL that you refuse to be emotionally blackmailed into deciding who you and your child do and don't see. She can choose to fall out with you but you refuse to get dragged into emotional BS. Be clear as well that you expect consistency for your dd in any relationships she has and if you don't get it you'll cut off ties altogether.

My in laws absolutely despise me. They have done some beyond horrendous things to me and my dh and dd and they make it obvious that they'll always hate me and worse still they pretend superficially to 'love' my dh and dd but it's obvious in their shitty-assed attitude that they will never be priority. I'm the b%*ch because I call them out on this. I just decided one day though that I'm done with the drama and I'm focussing on my dd having a good relationship with her cousins and trying my best to have a good relationship with my nieces. The rest of them can take a long walk off a short plank as far as I'm concerned but I realise that my dd at least needs the opportunity to have a relationship with her cousins as best as I can facilitate this. They are all innocent kids and don't deserve anything less. There's been a lot of drama in the past but I've now learned to refuse to engage with said drama. The biggest thing I've done is stopped trying so hard to be liked. I realised that if they haven't learned to at least treat me with respect in 15 years my ILs will always resent breathing the same air as me however hard I try. This will ultimately impact on their relationship with my dd no doubt but if I'm doing my best to give them access to my child and keeping my mouth shut then I'm doing my best for my child and that's all that matters.

Focus on your child and your immediate family unit. Refuse to dramatise things and get on with what's right for you. You won't go far wrong with your child if you do this. Most of us aren't lucky enough to have simple, fully functional extended families. Your dd will have to learn this one day. The most important thing you can teach her is how to deal with this and not to repeat the cycle...

I'm a bit struggling to work out the relationships... Are MIL and SIL mother and daughter?
In which case, a mother fell out with her daughter because the daughter said something a bit critical about her niece?
If that's what triggered this falling out, that would suggest that MIL has her own issues.

What's your DHs role in all this? Has he been the golden child growing up? Never criticized, told off, everything he does is perfect? Perhaps SIL is seeing signs of that continuing to filter down to the next generation and snapped? HER children get snapped and pecked at, whereas the one time she dared to suggest that niece should have some sauce on her pasta... that was criticising the golden child's offspring and HELL NO.

I don't think your MIL should be dictating whether her grandchildren are allowed to see each other. If she doesn't want to see SIL, that's up to her, but the children shouldn't be dragged into it. They're cousins and they've done nothing wrong here.

Whoa!!! You are a grown woman, if you let her abuse you with her silent treatment then so be it, but don't let her start being "mono syllabic" with your child.
This destructive behaviour needs to stop right now. Your DH needs to step up.

No wonder FIL was depressed after spending his adult life living with her.

Ha not sure about OP but mine are & you're not wrong here

Someone speaks out of turn about someone's pasta recipe (or something else equally insignificant) & leads to decades long drama & angst across several generations

They'll also be super hypocritical by ostracising some family members yet still insisting how the extended family must gather for endless hours at the drop of a hat because family first

If the OP's family is also Italian then I feel her pain because the MIL is beyond reasoning with. She will have been waiting her whole life to be the Nonna in charge & if you don't bow down to her demands you will be depriving her of her Godgiven birthright to control every other member of the family.

Yes am probably projecting & many other Italian families are harmonious.

#woglife

So she's punishing your child for something that is completely outside her control?

Sounds to be like MIL used an innocuous comment about your DD as an excuse to have an argument with SIL and make sure you and your dh were ‘on her side’ in the whole dispute. Now she’s pissed that hasn’t worked. Now she’s upset that hasn’t worked.

What a horrible situation for everybody. And you should not be the person in the firing line OP - in fact, nobody should be, but you are blameless, & MiL is using you as a pawn in her control & manipulation of her family.

Now it's August and I'm visiting with DH and DD. I suggested to DH that I take DD to see her cousins for a coffee/park play date as they are close. I asked if it would be OK and to check with his DM.

THIS ^^ fairly leapt of the page to me, & seems to be at the heart of this whole messed up dynamic. You've been living within it for so long that maybe you don't see it clearly - but nobody should feel the need to ask permission of anyone to visit a 3rd party!
Can you see how toxic & controlling that is?
MiL must have done a real number on all of you that you didn't simply arrange to visit your SiL without reference to her.
By asking for that permission (please be aware I am NOT blaming you, I've lived with people like MiL & understand how insidious the behaviour-changing to appease them is) - you have confirmed to MiL that you believe your relationship with SiL is within MiL's gift to bestow or withhold.

And of course she withheld it! Controlling people crave power over others. She is grieving & wounded, & this gives her the chance to punish SiL for perceived slights & punish you for daring to suggest something so outlandish as some cousins meeting up ...
While all this plays out, MiL gets to act the matriarch AND present herself as victim. Double whammy!

It's interesting how you describe PastaGate - all the focus is on SiL & MiL - how MiL snapped, SiL cried, & DH was cross - but how did your 7 year old child react?
If she was unbothered, she's the most sensible one there! - not that it's doing her any favours to witness this overwrought acting out amongst adults.

If you want to continue pandering to MiL for the rest of your life & DD to miss out on cousins, keep believing that you need to apply to the Office Of MiL for permission to do perfectly ordinary everyday things.
If you are fed up with it, just for goodness sake stop asking permission & start doing what you consider best for you & your family.

PP will be asking 'where is DH in all this' & there will be a whole mess to unpick there too, because the poor man was raised by his controlling mother & will be hard pressed to see the wood for the trees. So I'm interested in that, but if you were fully supported by DH in not allowing his batshit mother to control his family, you wouldn't have been in a position where you felt you had to ask (or even tell!) MiL whether you were allowed to visit your own SiL & DD's cousins. You'd just do it.
So this time - if you want to go - I doubt DH will be doing the legwork for you with his mother. Meaning, if you want to go - either just do it, & deal with the fallout - OR talk to MiL & put her straight.
"Maureen I'd been looking forward to seeing you again on this visit. I know you are still grieving & that will make you feel things more deeply - but you are being daft about SiL. I don't need your permission to visit SiL & I am not depriving DD of contact with her cousins. I'm sorry you & SiL aren't getting along, but am not prepared to take sides because it doesn't help anyone. So I am going to be staying neutral, & seeing SiL as suggested.
If you persist in refusing to speak me there is nothing I can do about that, except feel very sorry that you'd rather be stubborn than relax with your family. DD will wonder why you are being so off with her mother, but I will think of a tactful explanation for her that doesn't make her feel that you are angry with her too. I hope you soon feel better about all this & you can relax & enjoy your whole family again."

& then just leave the ball in her court.
I wouldn't be too bothered about DD's relationship with MiL quite frankly. She doesn't need this manipulation in her life.

I agree with PP, OP. Obviously a very sad situation for your family, but your MIL’s behaviour seems to be a separate (and possibly pre-existing) issue. I think asking DH to check you had her permission to visit SIL and allowing her to control your behaviour is the issue here. I’m a therapist and am slightly obsessed with boundaries as a result 😂 If I might suggest a book, Set Boundaries, Fond Peace by Nedra Glover Tawwab has so many useful scripts for people like your MIL who try to dictate dynamics like this.

You aren't doing anything wrong. If you want your daughter to have a relationship with her cousins, then she needs to spend time with them.

Your MIL appears to be leveraging her issues to control various family members and gain sympathy. This is not reasonable behaviour. She doesn't get to dictate who sees who in the extended family and how they feel about each other. She just doesn't.

Make sure your husband has your back. You aren't doing anything wrong.

Jeeze OP I missed that MiL is extending the silent treatment to her innocent 7 year old GD. HOW IS YOUR DH STANDING BY & ALLOWING THAT?

Another PP elsethread posted this a while back, & I hope you & anyone with a controlling narc-type in their circle find it helpful -

Don't rock the boat.

I've been thinking about this phrase a lot lately, about how unfair it is. Because we aren't the ones rocking the boat. It's the crazy lady jumping up and down and running side to side. Not the one sitting in the corner quietly not giving a fuck.

At some point in her youth, Mum/MIL gave the boat a little nudge. And look how everyone jumped to steady the boat! So she does it again, and again. Soon her family is in the habit of swaying to counteract the crazy. She moves left, they move right, balance is restored (temporarily). Life goes on. People move on to boats of their own.

The boat-rocker can't survive in a boat by herself. She's never had to face the consequences of her rocking. She'll tip over. So she finds an enabler: someone so proud of his boat-steadying skills that he secretly (or not so secretly) lives for the rocking.

The boat-rocker escalates. The boat-steadier can't manage alone, but can't let the boat tip. After all, he's the best boat-steadier ever, and that can't be true if his boat capsizes, so therefore his boat can't capsize. How can they fix the situation?

Ballast!

And the next generation of boat-steadiers is born.

A born boat-steadier doesn't know what solid ground feels like. He's so used to the constant swaying that anything else feels wrong and he'll fall over. There's a good chance the boat-rocker never taught him to swim either. He'll jump at the slightest twitch like his life depends on it, because it did.

When you're in their boat, you're expected to help steady it. When you decline, the other boat-steadiers get resentful. Look at you, just sitting there while they do all the work! They don't see that you aren't the one making the boat rock. They might not even see the life rafts available for them to get out. All they know is that the boat can't be allowed to tip, and you're not helping.

Now you and your DH get a boat of your own. With him not there, the balance of the boat changes. The remaining boat-steadiers have to work even harder.

While a rocking boat is most concerning to those inside, it does cause ripples. The nearby boats start to worry. They're getting splashed! Somebody do something!

So the flying monkeys are dispatched. Can't you and DH see how much better it is for everyone (else) if you just get back on the boat and keep it steady? It would make their lives so much easier.

You know what would be easier? If they all just chucked the bitch overboard.

YANBU and you sound lovely - and yet, despite your loveliness, your MIL is on a path to fall out with another DIL. She's the common factor in these arguments and she's afraid of you and the other DIL joining forces against her, which says a lot more about her than about your and DIL. Obviously what's happened with her DH is terrible, but she can't bring that up in every situation to trump whatever else is going on. She's creating these fissures - between the cousins, between you and SIL and now even between you and your DH. Don't pander to this at all. Have faith in your own sensitivity and do what's right for your daughter.

@GeriSignfeld - your post struck a chord with me and I wanted to empathize with your situation. I lost out on a relationship with my elder sibling, whose existence I wasn't aware of until my teenage years, because my father created a new family and - much to my mother's chagrin - couldn't be arsed with his own first child. An inattentive father, he never facilitated any relationship with my cousins (my mum was an only child), who I've met only a handful of times in my life, and one I've never met at all. I connected with my sibling as an adult, but it's not the same relationship I have with my younger sibling with whom I have a shared history.

During the hard times we all meet sooner or later as adults, not least the abuse I suffered from my father's hands at a child, I really needed and longed for the support of an extended family (I, too, am not close to my in-laws). I'm thankful for a wonderful friendship network of love and support, but I won't pretend it doesn't feel hurtful and isolating sometimes.

@LiarLiarKnickersAblaze - OP, you seem a kind, tactful and considerate DiL. Once your MiL is in a better place and has hopefully come to her senses, I hope she is better able to appreciate this. The idea of flowers as a conciliatory gesture - not an apology, is a good one, bearing in mind she's navigating one of the hardest forms of bereavement imaginable and that deep grief isn't conducive to rational thinking.

Her issues with your DH's SiL are none of your business. Also leaving aside the need for your DH to take a less passive role and step up in support, I'd frame any explanation to your MiL as omitting adults and their issues from the equation entirely. This is about putting your daughter first. Children should not be penalized by depriving them of important relationships with other children in the family - this includes your niece as well as your daughter - because adults are unable to reconcile their differences. An acknowledgement that she supported your daughter might also go some way to healing the breach.

On the other hand, in no way should you capitulate to anyone who issues this kind of ultimatum: it really is a cruel and self-centred form of emotional blackmail. You're in a difficult situation and are dealing with this tactfully and sensitively whilst putting your daughter's needs first. Kudos to you.

@KettrickenSmiled that is bloody amazing and should be pinned on the stately homes and relationships threads!!

I would take the higher road and make it about the kids emphasising your child needs and is entitled to see your cousins and let that be the end of it. Say its not about us grownups and it isn't fair for the children to suffer in any way, that might show it all from a different perspective xx

@MichelleScarn innit!

Every time I dig it out of the archive I see something new in it.
Glad to have passed it on 😀

I also wouldn't buy flowers as it suggests you're doing something wrong and trying to make up for it and apologise and its not needed xx

You need to stop pandering to this bullshit, you’re making a rod for your own back.
”The problem is between you and SIL, we are not going to be dragged into it.”
Then point blank refuse to discuss it with either party.

Fuck 😮This perfectly describes my family.

I’m confused by the OP as to whether MIL still has a good relationship with the cousins, SIL’s children? Or is it just SIL she’s being nasty too? If she’s also ignoring her other grandchildren, this paints her in a very bad light.

Is your DH the golden child and won’t say anything because he doesn’t want to upset his position?

I definitely WOULD NOT be buying this awful manipulative woman flowers or apologising. All that does is feed into her belief that she’s right to continue to sulk and treat other family members appallingly.

Someone needs to stand up to her if you don’t want that poison to filter down into the next generation. Yes, you can acknowledge her loss but you must not continue feed her ego by allowing her to control your relationship with the wider family.

You might want to reflect on what could happen if she’s allowed to continue with her manipulative behaviour. Did she control her late DH in the same way…?

I love the boat rocking analogy. It’s brilliant and insightful.

Reading the OP, all I could think was that the OP is now getting to see the sort of shit SIL has been dealing with for years. I’d be inclined to reassess the entire family narrative that ostracises and demonises SIL, while centring all the attention on MIL.

My guess is that SIL had run out of fucks to give and now MIL needs another evil DIL to ostracise. Ideally combining the two.

You know a family is deeply dysfunctional when the mother is insisting that her children take sides against each other. I mean, @LiarLiarKnickersAblaze‘s husband won’t visit his brother and his wife’s house so the cousins can play because he’s taken MIL’s side. Just think about how screwed up that is.

Even if you’ve fallen out with someone, you don’t insist that others must show loyalty to you by ostracising that person. Unless you’re the toxic heart of a dysfunctional family.

Oh, so my "D"M isn't the only one who does this?? Mine's always telling different stories to me and my DSis and she still doesn't seem to have clocked that we always compare notes with each other and know what she's said to the other. We now take everything she says with a very large grain of salt.

OP, I've also been the child in a situation with a massive family estrangement. My "D"M fell out with her (only) brother and his wife shortly before I was born. There are conflicting stories about what happened but I can readily believe it was DM's fault. They never spoke to each other again (DM now in her 80s, her brother died a few years ago). As a consequence we never saw our cousins while growing up, even though we grew up only a few miles apart. DM and her brother even blanked each other at their parents' funerals.

A few years ago my sister and I met some of our cousins for the first time and began to build a relationship, although of course it is nothing like the one we might have had if we'd grown up together. We were all over 45 by the time we first met. When DM found out we were in touch with our cousins she went ballistic and started shouting about them being horrible people (she's never met any of them). This was nearly 50 years after she fell out with their father. There's no reasoning with her.

Don't let your MIL create estrangement between your DD and her cousins if you can avoid it. But I do think your DH needs to step up here. Doesn't he want to spend some time with his own brother and get to know his own nieces? Why is it down to you and SIL to facilitate the children getting together?

If you buy flowers you are teaching your daughter that if someone is behaving badly you don’t address it you let them get away with it and in fact reward them. I’d be furious if an adult was sulking at my child , I had a mum who used the silent not speaking properly tactic as a child and it’s very damaging.