Are preschools allowed to reject children because they are not toilet trained?

[BenjiLove]

Just that really. My DS was toilet trained for 6 weeks or so - but has regressed & is now having accidents and wanting his nappies back again.

DS is due to start preschool in Sep. The preschool is Ofsted registered (the rest of the school is private) - as it's an early years provider and has the free hours.

Anyway - in the contract it says children must be fully toilet trained, if they're not, can be removed and not even given deposit back.

It also says they can reject children if they are have SEN or are challenging and it affects others.

Surely if they're ofsted registered they need to be more inclusive than this?

I was so impressed with the facilities and the preschool staff I met, and DS's current nursery is falling apart (no staff, having to close for random days) , so keen for the move - but starting to panic I've been seduced by the fancy stuff and it's not particularly welcoming or inclusive??

They actually have in writing about SEN? Wow, I'm pretty sure that this is clear discrimination and not legal.

I think they can. At my son's preschool they had the same rule. I had to potty train him early because he's summer born and so was only just 3 when he started. He was toilet trained by the time he started, but he struggled to pull up his pants and trousers / shorts and they were always getting on at me about it! Telling me they don't have the time and resource to help him and I needed to work on it at home (I was!!). They also wouldn't help with wiping at all so he would get in a mess if he pooped when he was there and he ended up holding it in until he got home because he found it stressful. I spoke to lots of friends who had had similar experiences at their preschools too so unfortunately it seems to be the norm in a lot of places ☹️.

This is in relation to school but possibly the same I should think.

www.eric.org.uk/help-at-school-faqs

It also says they can reject children if they are have SEN or are challenging and it affects others

Can you screenshot that bit? Where is this place?

Just because it is common does not mean it is legal. Settings are not aloowed, by law, to discriminate against children who suffer from developmental delay (of which toilet training is one example). I think it is in the Equality Act 2010 but would have to check.

Page 7 - pdnet.org.uk/media/WCC-SEND-Toileting-Guidance.pdf

Yes they can, as they can say they are not equipped to cope, and they can refer you to a setting which is explicitly set up for children with developmental delays and SEN. This happened to my child who had a global developmental delay and I’m a lawyer so I read around the legislation and regs quite carefully. DC was toilet trained by 3 though, they had language and motor delay.

Is this in the UK @BenjiLove

I’m not sure what the official rules are. I think it’s tricky for some pre-schools because having one or two children who are not toilet trained is manageable on top a few more that are a bit on and off and still getting the hang of it. But what you’re seeing nowadays is a lot of children who need support with this, not just a handful - and there just isn’t enough staff to manage that. I could see how some preschools if they’ve reached tipping point with it have to take a firmer approach - it doesn’t matter what the ‘official rules’ are around it, if you don’t have enough staff to cope with the demands, the rules are meaningless.
I suppose it’s the same for challenging behaviour and, yes, even SEND. If the amount of children with behavioural difficulties and additional needs becomes incompatible with staff ratios, what can they do? Unless you have an EHCP, there’s no extra money for more staff to help manage everything. And simply ‘managing’ isn’t really what should be going on anyway - they are supposed to be facilitating learning amongst all this.
This may not be the case with your nursery - they may just be taking a very harsh and unfair approach. But I think for some nurseries their hands are tied in this.

If the accrept early year funding they can't and according to the ERIC guidelines if they try and insist parents come into change their child who is wet and or soiled it can considered neglect .

@DorisWallis Yes - in England.

@Comefromaway - I'm not going to screen shot it but it there are two clauses 1) if your child endangers other children we can remove them without a months notice 2) if you child has SEN we may not be able to accommodate that, if you don't disclose any SEN before your child starts we can take the place away with immediate affect.

@Aussiedream @Aria2015 - so you both know that preschools CAN have this stipulation about toilet training, but it seems pretty clear on the ERIC website that schools are not allowed to discriminate on disability and not toilet training counts as disability?? Confusing. But sounds like it's fairly normal so they must be getting away with it somehow.

So confusing. I've been calling ERIC helpline all week but no one ever answers.

I don't want to kick up a fuss now, because a) DS might be ok by mid Sep (when he will start) and also b) if he isn't OK _ maybe they will be far more helpful and understanding than their contract states they have to be - maybe they're just covering themselves. I don't know.

@x2boys If they tried to make me leave work to come to preschool to change my boy's pants - I would be fuming. That would be so neglectful.

This is very common in pre schools. They don't have the staff to accommodate dozens of kids in nappies. So many children are toilet trained much later these days it seems and it must have an impact.

OP perhaps you need to find a nursery which take children from younger. My child’s nursery (6months-5yrs) help with potty training. Regardless of legalities I wouldn’t want my child in such an exclusive environment.

Yes, I think they can. Many parents are leaving toilet training much later these days, not saying there is anything wrong with that but it does mean that more support is needed for those children and not all settings are resourced to provide that.

INdependent schools are not exempt from the regulations

I think there is a misconception about loads of kids still being in nappies, my son started at a mainstream school nursery when he was three in nappies due to his severe autism and learning disabilities, he was the only child in nappies, imhe than went to a special school and is now 12 and only came out of nappies a couple of years ago I don't know why people think parents just can't be arsed toilet training their children, because it's really bloody hard having an older child in nappies, there is usually a reason for it.

(6)A duty to make reasonable adjustments applies to the responsible body of such a school.
(7)In relation to England and Wales, this section applies to—
(a)a school maintained by a local authority;
(b)an independent educational institution (other than a special school);

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/13

No idea of the legalities (I’m under the impression they can’t legally refuse if not toilet trained but I don’t know for sure) but from the point of view of the pre school - the ratio of children to teachers is 1:13 if the teacher is qualified. I can only imagine attempting to teach (not just care for) 13 small children whilst also trying to change nappies or deal with constant accidents. My daughter turned 3 in April and could theoretically have attended her pre school from 2 but I’m only putting her in from September (so almost 3.5) as I didn’t think her toileting was reliable enough (despite training over a year ago!!) until now - I felt a childminder with 1:3 ratio was better for her until she was more reliable.

I'd choose a nursery that goes up to school age rather than a school attached one.

DC2 was fully toilet trained at 2.5. DC2 needed help past 6 so even once he started actual school because of chronic constipation and knock-on effects. His nursery/pre-school were absolutely fine about it and worked with us to help him make progress.

This school's attitude sounds awful all round.

One of the reasons I personally think that a good nursery is better than pre school. We send children to school early enough as it is in the Uk, why push to get them into a school type environment at age 3?! The very fact that they won’t deal with issues that are very, very normal for kids of that age means that to me they’re not a very appropriate environment.

Some people who go for pre schools criticise nurseries for not doing enough on the education/school prep side, but a good one will. Our nursery is ofsted outstanding and does amazing work to get the kids school ready, my son had zero issues transitioning and had been doing lots of early phonics type stuff with the staff (play based) because he was interested and ready. But, he was also in a nurturing environment where he got hugs and help wiping his little bottom if he still needed!

I think it's absolutely fucking outrageous for a nursery to say that when they accept children from age 2. Don't care about having enough staff, obviously at 2 or 3 or older there will always be a number of kids who are not secure with using the toilet - particularly at the start when things are unfamiliar, and nurseries either need to have enough staff or don't operate at all.

Also surely the fact that ratios don’t allow for the staff to meet the normal basic needs of three year olds means that something isn’t quite right with the pre school set up? Surely ratios should be set to ensure the kids’ needs can be met. Not pushing kids to act more advanced than they are in order to allow for higher ratios?! Honestly, find a good nursery if you can and leave school until reception, by which time potty training is highly likely to be done and dusted. Pushing kids before they’re ready in order to convenience adults is never going to end well.

That's absolutely shocking! What a disgusting way to treat little kids that need help 😡 Your poor boy 😔

Surely ratios should be set to ensure the kids’ needs can be met. Not pushing kids to act more advanced than they are in order to allow for higher ratios?!

But children aren’t expected to act more advanced. Generally it’s expected that 9 out of 10 children are toilet trained by the age of 3 - it says this on the NHS website - and of course within the ‘9’ that accounts for the occasional accident, that’s normal and shouldn’t be a problem.
In a pre-school class of 30, having 3 children in nappies shouldn’t be an issue.
But I think in the last few years ‘1 out of 10’ still in nappies at the age of three has become far from the reality. It’s much more than that. And that makes things difficult.