Are preschools allowed to reject children because they are not toilet trained?

[BenjiLove]

Just that really. My DS was toilet trained for 6 weeks or so - but has regressed & is now having accidents and wanting his nappies back again.

DS is due to start preschool in Sep. The preschool is Ofsted registered (the rest of the school is private) - as it's an early years provider and has the free hours.

Anyway - in the contract it says children must be fully toilet trained, if they're not, can be removed and not even given deposit back.

It also says they can reject children if they are have SEN or are challenging and it affects others.

Surely if they're ofsted registered they need to be more inclusive than this?

I was so impressed with the facilities and the preschool staff I met, and DS's current nursery is falling apart (no staff, having to close for random days) , so keen for the move - but starting to panic I've been seduced by the fancy stuff and it's not particularly welcoming or inclusive??

I’m a pre school teacher.

No, we cannot exclude children who are not potty trained.

Completely agree. I hope things work out for the OP and her DS before September but I would not have wanted to potty train before my DC was ready or have it be a source of stress. And for us, that was when DC was 3 years 2 months to around 3 and a half for being completely confident.

Even at reception level, toileting accidents are very common amongst new starters and I'd expect any decent school to deal with them discreetly, competently and without excessive fuss to parents.

Lots of preschools where I live (only a few nurseries) and none of them exclude children in nappies. Most of the preschool take two year olds so that’s probably why. I do know of one school nursery that doesn’t like to take children in nappies.

If they receive 3 and 4 year old funding from the LA they cannot refuse a child who is not toilet trained.

It is the same for any funded provider and the rule has been in place for at least 16 years.

there are two clauses 1) if your child endangers other children we can remove them without a months notice 2) if you child has SEN we may not be able to accommodate that, if you don't disclose any SEN before your child starts we can take the place away with immediate affect.

Is may doing some heavy lifting here?

Does it mean they would consider the individual child and their needs?

well I didbn't disclose any SEN when both of my children started th nursery at a private school because at that point we had no idea! Things can manifest at any time.

1. if your child endangers other children we can remove them without a months notice 2) if you child has SEN we may not be able to accommodate that, if you don't disclose any SEN before your child starts we can take the place away with immediate affect.

I think these are reasonable clauses to be honest. They're not saying they don't accept SEN children, they're saying that you must let them know if your child has additional needs. You can't just rock up on day 1 without having informed them as that doesn't give them the chance to put any additional supports required in place.

@redYellowandblue Yes - they receive funding from the LA.

Right, well I'll be supporting my DS to be as confident as possible by September start but if they kick up a fuss if he has accidents or needs help - then I know where we stand & that they can't just say they won't accept him. He's only just turned 3. Some days are absolutely fine, but others he wees anywhere and everywhere.

I would keep him at the current nursery but their staff issues have got so bad that they are starting to close on random days & they seem so so stretched. And there there is no way of getting another place anywhere in time for Sep. To be honest, the preschool was lovely and the kids were all having lots and lots of fun when I went to look round - but the contract they've sent me and communications with them over the summer is like something from the victorian era.

I’m surprised to hear people saying it’s ok or normal for preschools to exclude children who aren’t toilet trained.

When I was looking at pre-schools for DC - a preschool attached to a primary school rather than a nursery - he wasn’t yet toilet trained.

I mentioned that to the teacher in charge, and they told me that they weren’t legally allowed to refuse children who aren’t toilet trained.

As it turned out, DC had cracked toilet training by the time he started, so it wasn’t an issue for us in the end.
But in the meantime it was a relief to know that he’d still be allowed into preschool if he did struggle to get the hang of toileting.

Honestly he might be fine my oldest who has no disabilities, was three years and two months when it finally clicked ww had been training him from two and a half some children just take a bit longer and its not uncommon for three year old to have accidents ,my youngest child who has severe autism was a who different matter but that's s different scenario.

Imagine the outcry if this was old people we were talking about? Where is the dignity and respect in allowing a child to remain soiled because he cannot yet manage to wipe himself efficiently? I speak as an ex childminder, foster carer and nursery nurse. If you work with young children in any capacity you should expect to have to help with personal care sometimes.

Be careful with accidentally pressuring him 'because, big boy school'.
Mine was a bit slower managing, and I reminded him the teachers wouldn't be able to help him... as a result he had his first accident in ages from trying not to go at school.

Basically they like them to be trained, know there will always be occasional accidents, and can't manage regular accidents because of staffing ratios.

2) if you child has SEN we may not be able to accommodate that, if you don't disclose any SEN before your child starts we can take the place away with immediate affect honestly there is No chance I'd want my kids here. I know you said your desperate as you need to work etc but I'd be working out the cancellation clause and looking for anything else. Lots of people don't know their kid has SEN at 3 and they're going to kick you out if yours does, or regresses and has too many toilet accidents??

DS went to a state school nursery, they obv loved them trained but had a dedicated changing space so understood it didn't always happen. They did prefer pull ups once they were 4 if still not dry so they could do more of it themselves but never refused to help, never sent ak I'd home smeared in poo or called a parent to change a nappy like some of my friends school did.

Hopefully my twins will be dry by 3 when they start there but at least I'm not panicking about us being basically victimised for failing at patenting if not

I agree that most kids can be reasonably reliably potty trained before age 3. Mine absolutely were. But refusing any help with wiping so that a three year old walks around basically soiled until home time is heartbreaking. See PP. I maintain that I don’t believe a pre school is the right place for many three year olds if they expect basically entirely reliable potty training and totally independent wiping. An environment where three year olds are entirely responsible for independent toileting is absolutely in my view, pushing them to be more independent/advanced than is suitable for the vast majority. There is a big spectrum between basically potty trained and suited to an environment with zero help! It’s not babying them to expect that three year olds will have accidents and need help quite regularly, which PPs have said isn’t accommodated at their pre schools. I find that inappropriate and sad.

Whatever you do

Do NOT put him back in nappies
He has turned 3 you said. Recently. So he is old enough to be potty trained. Just because he regressed doesn't mean this will last weeks/months. Try different ways to encourage him.

But honestly: If I ran a kindy i would ban the non potty trained kids too . Imagine 30 kids that wee them selves several times throughout the day. You cant really blame them can you...

That's the reason the place seemed so wonderful and full of happy staff and children, it's because they exclude any children with potential issues. So, only send your child if you are 100% certain he will stay "perfect" and "normal".

If I ran a kindy i would ban the non potty trained kids too

Then I'd suggest a different career choice. Even in reception classes, it is not unusual for there to be accidents including amongst potty-trained children, especially at the start of term when they are getting used to school. There will also be a few per class who aren't trained for one reason or another. Assisting with intimate care is just part of the territory if you're working with young children.

Completely agree with this. I’m a Nursery teacher and whilst we can’t ask them to be toilet trained it makes it very difficult when they aren’t. I think a lot of parents see us ‘playing’ and don’t see it as a big deal but we each have set activities or areas we are in that the children are exploring, a child has an accident and we have to stop whatever we’re doing with the rest of the children to change them. Sometimes this happens 4 or 5 times in one morning.

Im not expecting no toileting accidents but I do find it frustrating when some parents have not even tried to toilet train!

I read it the same way as you. They are simply being clear that they might not be able to accommodate children until they know what their specific needs are. That will be for the safety of the child as much as anything else.

Childcare settings should always be ofsted registered, it doesn't mean they're not privately run and entitled to make their own policies

While it is hard for staff to have to deal with non-toilet trained children, there are so many reasons why a child is not toilet trained at the normal age. I have worked in a nursery fro a few years now and we have been told they are not even allowed to ask parents beforehand about toilet training, and that no child can be refused for this, as we do not know why they are not. It could be a disability and therefore it would be discriminatory to not allow the child. It has nothing to do with where their funding is from.

One of my DC had a hard time toilet training, and it turns out she has a very delicate digestive system and it was not working as it should. It took until she was nearly 4 before it was all sorted and she still has occasional accidents and there is not much we can do about it. Had her school had a problem I would have kicked up a big fuss!!

I feel in exactly the same position OP. Pre school nursery starting in September. I have boy girl twins and my DD is potty trained but DS is having multiple accidents every day and never done poo on the potty. I'm awake most night worrying about him and how he will get on.

just to add I have worked with non-toilet trained children including one that had multiple, liquidy, horrifically smelling nappies a day and I just had to change him. I was given gloves, apron etc to do so with, but had to just do it. I actually felt sorry for him that at nearly 7 he still had nappies on, but he did not mind...

I work in a role that also includes childcare and you'd be surprised how often parents don't tell us about specific, diagnosed SEN needs in advance. Usually we could have dealt with them but it's tricky with no notice. Very occasionally we would advise that the setting is not right for the child as we can't keep them/other children safe. I read it as referring to that sort of situation rather than SEN needs developing and the child being kicked out immediately.