To think there's still that teeny weeny bit of a pandemic thing happening?

[IAmOldNow]

Not complaining, just observing:

Figures say: cases rising, hospitalisiations rising, fatalities: flat at best but if anything that'll be thanks to large scale immunisation, largely due to vaccines that may not prevent infection altogether but are, largely, proving to be pretty good at making sure the vast majority of us don't end up on a ventilator and/or: dead!

Currenrt reality says: huge client party tonight. Cue some 3k people crammed into a mostly indoors space, free alcohol, hugging, air kissing, any old thing you'd imagine from people who, literally, know and do not actively hate each other and haven't met in the flesh for two years.

AIBU to think that this is a) human and understandable but also b) bound to see 1/3 of the organisation out cold with COVID within a week?

For the record: I don't know the right answer! I went, too!

Exactly

People dont seem to see longer term any more.

It started out as fear but ended up tipping into mindless cruelty

agreed. It gave a certain type of individual carte blanche to throw their weight around and try to tell people what to do.

As for roping off kids’ playparks and benches…it went far too far.

Yes it seems ridiculous now roping off kids playgrounds but in the very beginning people were terrified ,and nobody quite knew how dangerous a load of kids playing together on equipment was going to be or not the scenes coming out of Italy were horrifying ,but two years on with vaccines and a lot more knowledge about covid we can only look back in hindsight .

Agree. A lot of it was absolute nonsense.

My experience of the “why not wear a little paper mask for just a few minutes, it’s such a teensy easy little simple thing, it’s only during a pandemic, whyyyyy won’t you keep doing it” is:

a) it isn’t easy teensy simple for some of us;
b) it isn’t ‘just a few minutes’ for some of us;
c) it does not reduce transmission (hello from Scotland, both mask- and covid-capital of Britain for most of the past year);
d) and the people who want me to do it won’t ever reach a point when they’re happy to say okay you can stop, and I am not doing this for the rest of my life.

so: no. I’ll continue to manage not coughing and sneezing in peoples faces as I always have.

And round and round we go.

I won't repeat earlier arguments, you'll be glad to hear - they're there for anyone feeling able or willing to engage.

But the masks thing?! I've tried to be measured, but sometimes there really is a place for sarcasm (lowest form of wit... sorry): a range of PPs above are clearly top-rated experts in their black & white assertions re. mask efficacy.

Here's a another attempt from me to present a nuanced view. So many such views seem to be being reframed as all-or-nothing demand / ruthless indifference to others' wellbeing / reductive simplification of different individuals' circumstances etc. If this is how the following comes across, so be it, but here goes (also in response to an earlier query directly to me about evidence for masks)...

To the people saying there's no evidence - your certainty is unusual! My understanding is that the evidence base for masks is really complex.

1. I'm no scientist, but am aware that research around such things is a hugely lengthy, complex process, for a range of reasons.
2. As such, I've skimmed some research essays & stats - & quickly accepted my total, utter inability to penetrate these!
3. Therefore, in this area, as in many others, I defer to those more knowledgeable than me.
4. Goodness knows, though, I'm conscious of the fallibility & ulterior motives of multiple authorities, though, so...
5. ...I look for the majority consensus among widely respected sources: multiple internationally renowned health agencies etc.
6. As such, when the NHS, CDC etc. have advocated masks across extended periods, when multiple, different governments have installed mask mandates, when surgeons wear them in operating theatres, when my family of doctors swear by them...
7. I think it's infinitely more likely that they have some effect that that they don't.

We then get to an even more complex issue, which I think people often confuse with the straightforward issue of efficacy reasoned through above. This evidence, to me, quite clearly shows that the common consensus - the best we get in many issues relating to humanity & health - can be efficacious - BUT to what degree, & how far does this justify encouraging or imposing their use? This is tricky, but here, my reasoning is...

8. The evidence above shows they can work: they can, literally, prevent transmission to some degree. To what extent, whether or not they will for me individually etc., I can't determine - how could I possibly?!
9. But, here, common sense steps in as well: a) I know when I talk I sometimes spray (ugh but true: we all do!), & catching this in a mask can only reduce the likelihood of my transmitting - or receiving - something! b) I know that Covid can kill that old person stuck having to use the underground daily that I'm sitting next to right now.

And that leads to the 2 simple questions I posed in my last post:

1. Will they be safer (perhaps by a miniscule amount) if I wear a mask? Yes.
2. Am I prepared to endure that slight discomfort for them? Most of the time, yes.

And here's another, to address some of the accusations levelled at those of us arguing for more considered testing & masking...

3. Am I saying everyone can, & should, test & mask without exception or consideration of individual circumstances? No. Am I therefore saying everyone who doesn't is selfish? No. BUT am I saying our society's attitude as a whole could be more rational & empathetic?

Hell, yes!

I'm no scientist, but am aware that research around such things is a hugely lengthy, complex process, for a range of reasons.

As it happened, we had like for like comparisons with countries that had a mask mandate and countries that didn't. England and Scotland for example. Or countries pre and pistasl mandates. And absolutely nothing there suggested that masks are efficacious against omicron.

As such, when the NHS, CDC etc. have advocated masks across extended periods, when multiple, different governments have installed mask mandates, when surgeons wear them in operating theatres, when my family of doctors swear by them

Firstly, all of that is such a blunt tool. Surgeons wear masks for a variety of reasons, it doesn't mean that masks are efficacious against something as infectious, minuscule and wading airborne as omincron.

Secondly, none of this advice has ever come from a comprehensive cost/benefit analysis of mask wearing. And there are costs to it, even if you don't see them.

Thirdly, they've got plenty wrong so far in this pandemic. See particularly fomite transmission which turned out to be infinitely less of a problem than they thought originally so all that excessive hand sanitising probably made minimal difference. Everyone here is learning as they go.

Fourthly, most highly vaccinated countries actually don't require masks any more, except in some specific settings, so that tells it's own tale.

If the data clearly indicated their benefit and proper cost / benefit analysis suggested that benefit was worth it, then people would have a different view I think. But neither of those things are the case.

As it happened, we had like for like comparisons with countries that had a mask mandate and countries that didn't. England and Scotland for example. Or countries pre and pistasl mandates. And absolutely nothing there suggested that masks are efficacious against omicron.

• Yep - as acknowledged above, there’s conflicting evidence, & I honestly don’t feel equipped to judge individual studies (terminology, stats, management of infinite variables, biased reporting of lies, damn lies & statistics etc. all frankly beyond my capacity).

Firstly, all of that is such a blunt tool. Surgeons wear masks for a variety of reasons, it doesn't mean that masks are efficacious against something as infectious, minuscule and wading airborne as omincron.

• Here, again, I trust the views of the docs I know who’ve worked in operating theatres on masks v omicron. Maybe other surgeons disagree - I’ve none to ask! 😂

Secondly, none of this advice has ever come from a comprehensive cost/benefit analysis of mask wearing. And there are costs to it, even if you don't see them.

• I honestly don’t know how to express any more clearly that I’m advocating for flexible personal choice - I’m glad mask mandates are over (my first post) & there’s no way, with things as they currently stand, that I’d argue for returning to these (as a teacher, I‘ve seen their effects!) I know, when I’m advocating a wholesale cultural shift that facilitates the individual choice to wear a mask that it’s easier to equate this to a desire for a universal mandate or an oppressive moral imperative - & it’s infinitely easier to argue against these - but neither is my intention.

Thirdly, they've got plenty wrong so far in this pandemic. See particularly fomite transmission which turned out to be infinitely less of a problem than they thought originally so all that excessive hand sanitising probably made minimal difference. Everyone here is learning as they go.

• Another point on which we already agree. Ref. comments above re. evolving science, fallible authorities, common consensus etc.

Fourthly, most highly vaccinated countries actually don't require masks any more, except in some specific settings, so that tells it's own tale.

• Yup, again, it does, & again, it’s a tale that, I reiterate, I agree with - an imposed requirement is a step too far because of other considerations. Again, it’s interesting that people really do seem to really struggle to separate the idea of long-term mandated or policed behaviour from that of promoting a cultural shift that is proportionately more sensitive to CEVs, with the potential for a correspondingly transformative cumulative shift in their quality of life.

If the data clearly indicated their benefit and proper cost / benefit analysis suggested that benefit was worth it, then people would have a different view I think. But neither of those things are the case.

• If only life, ethics etc. were that simple! 😂

I honestly don’t know how to express any more clearly that I’m advocating for flexible personal choice

But I don't understand what's stopping this happening, isn't this what we have?

If only life, ethics etc. were that simple!

We do need some basis for decision making. This one has served us well on many issues.

The autocratic personalities are longing for winter so that they can tell everyone how feckless and selfish they are for daring to live self-determined, fun and fulfilling lives🤓

One thing that is interesting is that all medical settings of any kind near me still have masks.Doctors, hospitals, dentists, opticians. If they did nothing, why would they bother?

They clearly do a lot. Not just against covid. If you want to get treated when you have a heart attack it's beneficial to have less viruses circulating and taking out the available (dwindling) medical staff.

I have a friend whose operation has been cancelled 3x due to lack of staff - mostly down to covid. If we had just a little less virus circulating it would make a big difference overall.

Just a little bit of consideration for others? A light paper mask for a few minutes when in close quarters? Far too much to ask obviously…

Unless you can provide good evidence that a 'light paper mask' will have significant effects on reducing transmission, then yes, it is far too much to ask.

And where did you get a 'few minutes' from? If you include public transport as 'close quarters' then that would be an hour a day for me. And longer for many others.

So yes, if you're going to ask people to do something unpleasant - and wearing a mask, even a 'light paper' one is unpleasant for many of us - then you need to be able to show why you are asking this of them. Making passive aggressive posts about others doesn't cut it.

Excellent post. I agree completely.

When people talk about 'sensible light touch restrictions' what they really mean is restrictions which don't restrict them. Same as how people are 'selfish' for doing things they don't want to do. It's been that way throughout the pandemic.

Let's face it, quite a few people, a disproportionate number of them on MN, didn't find lockdown all that troublesome and are nostalgic for aspects of it.

You can’t just impose stuff on the population on a long term/permanent basis without consultation and conclusive evidence that there is a point in doing so.

Different in the middle of an emergency situation such as an active pandemic (and even some of those decisions were ropey in the circumstances) but we are no longer in an emergency situation.

Nonsense, I don't remember being consulted about the NI rise, or inflation, or fuel prices. Government can do what they like, our only power is that we get to boot them out after five years.

With Covid, we're in for a very difficult autumn and winter. At the moment conditions are as in our favour as much as they will get - lots of sunshine, warm so windows open, people socialising outdoors etc. When it gets cooler, Covid will start ripping through society and I fear deaths will rocket.

What people have shown is that, left to manage Covid themselves, they won't act responsibly. Lockdowns are the best idea, but WFH were possible, mandatory mask wearing indoors and on public transport, limits to the number of people who can gather for social events and a return to limited numbers of people in shops at one time are easy wins that will make the difference between life and death for tens of thousands this winter.

But CoViDz OvEr innit.

If they did nothing, why would they bother?

We do lots of things for unevidenced reasons. Optics, to make statements, as a comfort. And yes I see why all of those could be important in hospitals. Equally they may be more effective against the transmission of other things that aren't covid.

If we had just a little less virus circulating it would make a big difference overall.

I think we need to get used to the reality, it comes in waves. We might be able to flatten a wave very slightly, but ultimately it makes little difference, the wave will just last longer.

It's been notable that this wave has been very effective in hunting down those who haven't had it before. It seems you can run but not hide here.

I honestly don’t think we do have it. Living somewhere that I think has come closer to what I’d call a good balance - it has the same absence of restrictions, but very different collective attitudes to individually taking precautions to protect the vulnerable - the difference with the UK is distressingly stark.

When I go to the UK & no longer need to explain to perfectly lovely friends that some people genuinely are still shielding, or stand next to a large sign on an NHS surgery door requesting people mask up if possible to protect vulnerable patients only to watch 100% stride happily maskless into the enclosed waiting room my parent has to sit in - then, I may think we’re closer to what I see here.

I’ll especially know we’ve made it when chats like this one don’t lead to so many cries of hyperbolic woe that people with my views are seeking to impose „misery forever“, but a more nuanced response (whether that response is in agreement or disagreement) & some sympathy to the people still enduring very real risks to life every single time they go out - & the people who care for & about them.

Things as simple as more honest government messaging & reporting re. CEVs, if only by just giving them the respect & column-space far more fashionable causes currently enjoy, could shift individual behaviours etc. to really transform these people‘s lives.

I wanted to give some numbers then, but couldn’t - doesn’t it say something about our attitude of collective denial that there are no figures, to the best of my knowledge, about how many people are living this way, besides those being shouted into the vacuum by minority charities?

Lockdowns are the best idea

FFS.

Lock yourself down all you like. The world (outside of China) has long since moved on.

limits to the number of people who can gather for social events and a return to limited numbers of people in shops at one time are easy wins

They aren't easy wins for those who depend on businesses operating to capacity for their livelihood, no.

is that the Zoom weddings person back again?

I honestly don’t think we do have it. Living somewhere that I think has come closer to what I’d call a good balance - it has the same absence of restrictions, but very different collective attitudes to individually taking precautions to protect the vulnerable - the difference with the UK is distressingly stark.

Where are you living?

Is the difference 'distressingly stark' in terms of infection rates?

I'm sure you'll do the usual coy MN thing and not tell us the name of this wondrous country where you reside, but it would be genuinely interesting to know how this unnamed country has achieved much lower infection rates despite an absence of restrictions. Pretty much everywhere outside China has abandoned most if not all restrictions. Even Oz and NZ are pretty much back to normal.

When people talk about 'sensible light touch restrictions' what they really mean is restrictions which don't restrict them.

What a daft generalisation. Simply. Not. True.

Nonsense, I don't remember being consulted about the NI rise, or inflation, or fuel prices. Government can do what they like, our only power is that we get to boot them out after five years

its different when its something that affects your physical person though. Or it should be, in my view.

I wonder if they've given up on the 'look East' mantra since it all went tits up over there?