Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think men don’t get asked to ‘choose between the baby or mothers life’?

154 replies

itsquietuptown · 07/08/2022 23:36

Just read an article about a husbands experience of traumatic birth, he writes that at one point the dr ‘took him to one side’ and asked if it came to it should they prioritise saving mum or baby.

This is not the first time I have heard this claim and some people are very adamant it happened to them.

But... surely this is not a thing? How would that be ethical for a birthing partner to decide on another person’s life? A husband or boyfriend or even ex-boyfriend/fling/one-night-stand having the power over a woman’s body because she has allowed them to be in the room.

I can’t see how this would be ethically right whatsoever..

OP posts:
satelliteheart · 09/08/2022 09:36

I imagine a large number of women, if there were problems in labour, would tell their midwife/doctor/partner to save the baby’s life over her own if it came to that point.

I disagree with this so much! I would never prioritise an unborn child over my own life. I love my kids but no way is their currently non-existent life more important than mine. I think a lot of women would hold the same view

SuperPets · 09/08/2022 09:38

butterfly990 · 08/08/2022 00:15

In Eire the unborn baby has more rights than the mother.

It's called Ireland, and no. You're talking bollocks

SuperPets · 09/08/2022 09:40

Perplexed0522 · 09/08/2022 06:28

That's a bit dramatic to say women are being sacrificed by having c sections. I don't know many women who would choose NOT to a c section if it meant their baby would survive,

…..and herein lies the issue.

I imagine a large number of women, if there were problems in labour, would tell their midwife/doctor/partner to save the baby’s life over her own if it came to that point.

So in fact, all these doctors who are ‘putting the patient’s life first’ may actually be going against what the mother wishes.

I have always wondered what would happen in these circumstances? If the mother has expressed those views do the doctors have to uphold them and ensure the baby is saved? Or would they still prioritise saving the woman’s life even if it meant the baby dying?

It’s an in retesting debate about issues such as ethics, consent, morals and decision making.

What would happen is the Dr has no choice...the woman is the patient, and an unborn baby is not a human person. The Dr ALWAYS has to put his patient first, they have no choice, legally or otherwise.

SuperPets · 09/08/2022 09:42

JudgeJ · 08/08/2022 15:48

I may be wrong but I'm sure I've read that years ago if it were a Catholic family the Priest would tell the doctor to keep the baby.

Show quote history

No, they wouldn't, as the logic would be that a living woman can have several more catholic babies, and shes needed to mind her other catholic children it wouldn't make sense to sacrifice her.

gatehouseoffleet · 09/08/2022 09:44

I would never prioritise an unborn child over my own life. I love my kids but no way is their currently non-existent life more important than mine. I think a lot of women would hold the same view

Also if you have other kids it's more important not to leave them motherless than "give" them a sibling.

gatehouseoffleet · 09/08/2022 09:45

Mothers are 4 times more likely to die after a c section

that is total nonsense. A "normal" delivery is much riskier than a c-section! Especially an elective c-section.

Original poster
itsquietuptown · 09/08/2022 09:48

If mum is conscious and able to consent then she can decide to consent or decline anything and may prioritise the baby over herself. I have even seen stories where women have delayed chemotherapy so they can carry a pregnancy to term upon discovering they have cancer.

I just find it pretty shocking that so many men seem to believe they would get to choose whether her life is worth saving or not, that whether she survives relies solely on her value to the man in the room.

OP posts:
AnnaMagnani · 09/08/2022 09:49

As everyone else has said, it's nonsense.

However I have also found that many families have very odd memories of what they have been told in hospital in high stress situations.

Even allowing for poor or miscommunication, some of the stories I have been told are just 'This would never happen' mainly revolving things such as 'I was asked to decide whether my mum should die'

Usually in medicine the decisions make themselves and family are engaged to make sure they know what is going on, can tell you what the person would want if they aren't able to, and to make sure they are on board with what is happening.

My area is end of life care. Most of my patients are dying regardless of what decisions anyone makes but I often hear relatives saying they were asked to decide - usually we are telling them how bad the situation is and not actually asking for decisions.

Eeksteek · 09/08/2022 14:50

Deux · 08/08/2022 12:53

there’s no automatic next of kin in the UK and nothing legally that states who your next of kin is.

It’s usually your closest relative but you could have a friend as your NOK if you wanted where you provide that information in advance. My understanding is that in an emergency it would be the closest relative ie spouse, parent, sibling.

Aha. So there’s some truth in it, but not quite what she said. I thought that might be the case. Does the that mean, as a widow, if I wanted to nominate a friend as official NOK I could do that? Rather than my batshit (although generally benign) mother. Obviously it will be my DD when she’s old enough,m. I have no siblings.

SuperPets · 09/08/2022 14:56

Eeksteek · 09/08/2022 14:50

Aha. So there’s some truth in it, but not quite what she said. I thought that might be the case. Does the that mean, as a widow, if I wanted to nominate a friend as official NOK I could do that? Rather than my batshit (although generally benign) mother. Obviously it will be my DD when she’s old enough,m. I have no siblings.

Show quote history

You can nominate whoever you want to be NOK, but they have no rights to speak for you or make decisions on your behalf. It would just mean that they would get the info on your condition.

They can pass on your wishes if asked, but they have no legal rights and can't consent for your or otherwise.

User354354 · 09/08/2022 15:03

Pixiedust1234 · 07/08/2022 23:42

It wouldn't surprise me if this happens still. Tradesmen ask to speak to the man of the house in preference to the little lady on a regular basis. Ask any mumsnetter.

Not the same thing at all though is it.

EddieHowesBlackandWhiteArmy · 09/08/2022 15:11

My friend nominated me as NOK when she went off to help with disaster relief following an earthquake. She gave me three rules to follow should I be asked what her preferences would be in a given situation.

  1. don’t negotiate with terrorists
  2. if it comes down to it switch her off at the earliest opportunity
  3. donate anything worth donating.
She wanted someone who if push came to shove would advocate for her based on her own wishes rather than her mum who is lovely but would be more emotional about it and would want extreme measures in any given situation.
Dinoteeth · 09/08/2022 15:12

Scianel · 09/08/2022 08:04

I imagine a large number of women, if there were problems in labour, would tell their midwife/doctor/partner to save the baby’s life over her own if it came to that point.

I don't think this would necessarily be the case at all, particularly if the mother already has children.

I can't see who you are quoting but I'd agree with you. Lots of women would choose their own life on the basis who will raise the baby if mum isn't there

Dinoteeth · 09/08/2022 15:22

Eeksteek · 09/08/2022 14:50

Aha. So there’s some truth in it, but not quite what she said. I thought that might be the case. Does the that mean, as a widow, if I wanted to nominate a friend as official NOK I could do that? Rather than my batshit (although generally benign) mother. Obviously it will be my DD when she’s old enough,m. I have no siblings.

Show quote history

Yes you can nominate anyone. My sis is also a widow, didn't want to nominate our mum or her kids to be NOK, so I am.

Plenty people would nominate their partner, who in the eyes of the law is nothing.

AnnaMagnani · 09/08/2022 15:31

In life there is no such thing as NOK, when hospital's ask for it they just want someone who is close to you and is going to pick up the phone. You can say whoever you want.

They are going to be a lot more interested in the opinions of your partner of 20 years than your ex-husband you never got round to divorcing but haven't spoken to in 25 years.

After you have died there is a strict legal order of NOK. So if you haven't made a will, that husband you didn't get round to divorcing will inherit, and your beloved partner will have nothing.

Really in hospitals we shouldn't say NOK as it's not what is meant at all, it creates a lot of confusion.

Dinoteeth · 09/08/2022 22:19

I suppose the other way to put it is who is your emergency contact, if you take seriously ill who should we call.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 09/08/2022 23:04

It certainly shouldn't happen but it used to be routine in certain circumstances and in some places still is. Catholic church dogma is that you CANNOT prioritise the life of the mother over the life of the baby (misogynistic horror in my book). but they stand by it https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/statement-on-right-to-life-of-mother-and-unborn-child-3749

So far as I'm aware in the UK since the latter half of the twentieth century the prevailing NHS ethos has been the woman is the patient and you do everything you can to help the patient, ideally ending up with a healthy baby by the end of the process. But I know a relative who didn't put that she was Catholic on the forms for fear that they'd go to her partner with such a question.

Excessivegoudacheese · 09/08/2022 23:53

That’s a lie.

Excessivegoudacheese · 09/08/2022 23:56

Is this a thing against catholics going on in this post? Or are you also including Protestants, jewish, Muslims?

Thereisnolight · 10/08/2022 08:32

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 09/08/2022 23:04

It certainly shouldn't happen but it used to be routine in certain circumstances and in some places still is. Catholic church dogma is that you CANNOT prioritise the life of the mother over the life of the baby (misogynistic horror in my book). but they stand by it https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/statement-on-right-to-life-of-mother-and-unborn-child-3749

So far as I'm aware in the UK since the latter half of the twentieth century the prevailing NHS ethos has been the woman is the patient and you do everything you can to help the patient, ideally ending up with a healthy baby by the end of the process. But I know a relative who didn't put that she was Catholic on the forms for fear that they'd go to her partner with such a question.

Total nonsense.

Thereisnolight · 10/08/2022 08:33

There was a well-publicised case in Ireland but the thinking was definitely that it was a missed diagnosis - no one realised how ill the mother was.

sashh · 10/08/2022 08:37

Excessivegoudacheese · 09/08/2022 23:56

Is this a thing against catholics going on in this post? Or are you also including Protestants, jewish, Muslims?

Well I have experience of priests visiting, not a Rabbi or an Iman.

felulageller · 10/08/2022 08:43

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC343856/

Ref for c section maternal mortality in the UK - 3x risk of death during ELCS, 9x for EMCS.

Most are done for the fetusrather than the mother.

PPs are quite naive about how births were managed prior to c sections being an option just in the last century or so.

*TRIGGER WARNING**

Examples- if a fetus was stuck it would be decapitated to save the mother.

If a pregnancy went beyond 42 weeks the baby would eventually be expelled by the body, just not always living.

C sections do save some Mums eg when there's eclampsia and induction fails but these are the minority.

But it is still true to say that women die in the UK due to the prioritisation of fetal life.

Yes some women choose this risk, but imo that can't be taken out of context of pressure from fathers to save his potential DC and general misogyny in society and in obstetrics especially.

Thereisnolight · 10/08/2022 08:51

I do agree that in the bad old days when most/all obstetricians were men who tended to be more educated than many of their patients there was a good bit of dismissiveness and even frank misogyny from a cohort of them towards the women (although many of the men were quite the opposite, kind and decent and worked extraordinarily long hours to help their patients). Most obstetricians now are women with babies themselves so I think it’s fair to say that attitudes have changed.

Excessivegoudacheese · 10/08/2022 09:11

I very like doubt it. But I’d it’s true I’m sorry that you experienced more than once or twice (since you say priestS) visiting a mother in her death bed during birth.