ATM withdrawal wasn’t me!

[SingSweetNightingale]

Hi all,

I’m looking for some advice as I can’t find much online that matches my current situation.

Whilst at work last Sunday I noticed two cash withdrawals at cash points had been made on my card. I immediately panicked as they totalled £300.
I contacted the bank and cancelled the card and they opened a dispute with the fraud team.

This is where my problem starts. The bank are refusing to refund me as they say it can’t be fraudulent. They said the transactions were made with my chip and pin card which can’t be cloned and whoever took the money used a cashpoint so must have known my pin.
I realised the last time I’d used the card was in Aldi the day before using chip and pin but these withdrawals weren’t made until the following day.
The location of the cashpoint is 30 minutes from my home however at the time I was an hour away from the location at work which I can prove.
Nobody uses my card or knows my pin but they’re adamant that it is not fraud and will not refund.

Has anyone been through something similar? Is it really impossible for cloning to happen on a chip and pin card? It seems like a complete mystery yet I’m being made out to be a criminal and I’m currently £300 down.

TIA

Because I thought the card could have been cloned as a form of making the withdrawals. I didn’t think that if it’s lost/stolen that means it can’t be cloned. They aren’t mutually exclusive and don’t cancel each other out.
However, if I’m wrong on that and they do cancel each other out then I apologise. I really have no idea how any of this works. I’ve never had a card stolen or any fraudulent activity occur on my accounts.

WHO if anybody had access to your purse/bag and therefore your cards between Aldi and the ATM withdrawal?

WHERE were you between Aldi and the ATM withdrawal? Did you go straight home, shut the door, spend the day and night completely alone, and not leave until driving straight to work the next day?

Nobody had access to anything. I had my 2 year old with me when I went to Aldi who was insisting on walking around at the time I was packing my shopping. I therefore was quite distracted at the tills and I don’t always put my card back in my purse if I’m in a rush. I sometimes just put it in my jacket pocket or my jeans pocket until I get home and sort everything out.
I came home after Aldi, did tea, bathtime, bedtime and all the rest of it. I then dropped my daughter off at the door of my
parents house Sunday morning and rushed off to work.

So despite knowing when you started the thread that yourcard was lost/stolen you thought that by coincidence that it has been cloned on the very same day so didn't bother to include that in your OP?

Can you not see why posters are frustrated?

Why are you even thinking of cloning? Someone has your card, why would it need to be cloned?

To clear up another point, you seem to be suggesting several exes who were each bad with money; is the one who you were happily with in January and whose child you are due to have next month the same one who died in February?

No to be honest, if posters are frustrated they are way too invested in a strangers life.
I mentioned it early on in my posts that the card was lost/stolen. It is not something that I purposely withheld.
The anger is way out of proportion for a simple mistake in an original post.

Several exes? I don’t think I’ve mentioned any ex other than the one you’ve found via previous posts.
I don’t have to talk about my life with you despite you thinking you’re owed it somehow. My ex is irrelevant to this situation despite the fact you all seem to think you’re detectives and have found the person who has my card. If you’re a detective and that invested, January is over 6 months ago so you do the maths.

Where are you getting that anyone is angry? Why would that be the case?obviously I can't speak for other posters but that would be a stranger reaction.

Have you actually read the posts? Stating I’m defrauding the bank, that I know my ex has the card.
It’s very upsetting to read such drivel.

Someone has both your card and your pin. The bank is quite likely to take the view that you have either allowed someone else to see your pin, or have been careless with it, and written it down or told it to someone.

They may not, but they are entitled to.

It's hard to believe that you have lodged a formal complaingt in the two or so business days since you found that it was missing, and that you have had a formal final response and then also passed the case to the onbudsman. Banks do not tend to work that quickly, this is one reason why people are suspicious of your story.

You have posted several times about your home situation, your child, stepchild, and partner who was bad with money and with whom you are going to have a child next month. When somoene asked if this partner could have taken your card, you said that he died six months ago. This seems strange, too, that a good reason that it was not actually someone close to you just turned up when it was needed.

You posted in Match 2021 that your relationship was over, yet in early 2022 were with someone with whom you'd been for five years and with whom you were planning to have another child.

To be clear, none of that is my business, but people are always going to look back for background in a case like this, and wonder when things seem a bit strange.

If you are to get the money back, which you will likely need for child number three who's arriving into your single-mother life next month then you need to make sure that what you put in your complaint is accurate, and truthful.

Where is everyone getting that I’m having a child next month?? I am categorically not having a child and have never posted about such.
Yes I had an ex that was bad with money. I have a child and he also had another child. There is no 3rd child …

OP getting on your high horse and accusing people of being aggressive is baffling.

We’re just asking questions because what you said didn’t make sense. You called what happened “a mystery” based on the bank saying cloning was not possible. But the obvious explanation is that your card had been stolen!! What mystery is there other than who stole it??

You keep saying that you know nothing about cards but that’s irrelevant. Surely you know that if someone steals your card and has your PIN, they can get your money and no cloning needs to happen.

in your OP, you do not say your card is lost or stolen. You ask if cloning is indeed impossible. I don’t know what you mean by “cancel each other out” - but cloning is completely irrelevant if your card has been stolen.

I feel for this op she’s came here asking for help and she’s had the Spanish Inquisition from the get go it’s little wonder her back is up , I can’t believe people have that much time they go out their way to search old threads. By the standards on this thread op clearly you should have came straight in and said your ex is dead and he was awful with money and you have a degree in banking because god forbid you got confused or missed something out. I’ve said in a post above I work in this industry specifically in fraud and if you need any help I’m happy to help but I’d honestly stop replying to all the repetitive questions here

I think people have been doing a search in your username which pulls up this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/legal_money_matters/4464232-my-partner-lies-to-me-about-his-debt-etc

You are not the OP, you have replied to the thread much further down the page, but I am assuming some people searched your name and just assumed you were the OP on every thread found, rather than looking at usernames.

That said, in those posts 6 months ago you are talking about a current partner who has previously been in debt: *I’ve been in a similar situation with DP. He lied and lied about money, I never knew how much debt he was in until I broke down and said I was leaving unless he sorted himself out.

He came clean - his debt was astronomical and far worse than even he thought it was (burying his head in the sand) after checking his credit file.

He entered into an IVA which means he physically can no longer apply for credit and this will last 6 years. It’s not for everyone and certainly will stop you being able to apply for a joint mortgage but it means you don’t have to think about the debt anymore. It will be paid off and each month the IVA company will collect the money and pay the creditors. It is also a legally binding contract so payments MUST be made.

In addition, I now manage all of the money and he has spending money in a personal account. His salary is sent to my account which is essentially used as a joint account (again not for everyone but works for us).*

Its confusing that now you’re saying you don’t have a partner, the only partner you had bad with money was your DD’s father but he was an ex anddied 6 months ago. These posts are from 6 months ago but it doesn’t sound like you are talking about an ex if your accounts were linked? And most bereaved people don’t refer to their partner as an ‘ex’ after they die, so you can understand why some posters would be confused.

I think a lot of posters are unfamiliar with Starling.

I think you're unfamiliar with being a victim of fraud, and that's why you used the wrong terms. Others would say you've spun a story. I say you're probably just confused and upset because something horrid has happened to you. People don't always communicate perfectly when they're distressed.

I was a victim of fraud many years back - details were stolen from a website - and I cried buckets. I knew I'd get my money back because it was a very clear cut case, but I cried because it felt like an invasion of my personal space. Emotionally, it felt like someone had broken into my home and taken money out of my purse, even though logically, it was just a fraudster in China using stolen credit card details from the internet.

People here are being overly harsh.

Let me come back to my original questions, which I think have been lost in the sea of angry posts.

Have you used the app to check your PIN when out and about? Everyone here has assumed you must have been shoulder surfed at a PIN pad in the shops or at an ATM, but with Starling, you could have potentially looked at your PIN anywhere. Is that something you might have done?

Is it possible you put your debit card in your bag, separated from your purse? (I.e. is it possible someone swiped the card from your bag without swiping anything else?) Or would it definitely have been in your purse with the other cards? Do you normally have one card per slot and if so, was there an empty slot?

I don’t always put my card back in my purse if I’m in a rush. I sometimes just put it in my jacket pocket or my jeans pocket until I get home and sort everything out.

Should we presume that (1) you've checked all pockets and (2) you didn't actually 'sort everything out' when you got home, else you would have noticed you didn't still have the card?

If there's been a theft, you need to get your story straight. I'm not having a go. I'm merely asking all the same interrogation questions that you'd face in reporting the theft.

Op

You have come back and muddied the waters further

as I say upthread, given your other posts about your DP (ex / dead / current - simply not clear) being a pathological liar about money and heavily in debt - this has all the hallmarks of… well, him.

i suspect you know this and were hoping to be able to get the money back from the bank.

i would put money on it op that you have triggered a fraud alert with your bank. If I were you, I would contact the bank and with draw your fraud claim and explain that you got the wrong end of the stick.

Otherwise I would reckon you will get in serious trouble

Have you used the app to check your PIN when out and about? Everyone here has assumed you must have been shoulder surfed at a PIN pad in the shops or at an ATM, but with Starling, you could have potentially looked at your PIN anywhere. Is that something you might have done?

The Aldi scenario is highly unlikely because any thief in a situation like that, even if they had somehow managed to take a note of the PIN number and snatched the card away without being noticed, would have used the card immediately, not waited until Sunday during which time OP could have noticed the card was missing and cancelled it. Similarly with being out and about checking the PIN - a thief would have to take note of the PIN number somehow and then find and take the card off OP without her noticing. An opportunistic stranger isn’t going to wait for the OP to be at work or travel any distance. They are going to use the card as soon as they can for as much money as they can because they know their time with the card working is limited.

However, a thief with access somehow might consider themself safe while OP is at work and intend returning the card somehow, in the hope they can do it again. So they will less about getting as much on the card as they can as soon as they can and more about getting it when they have access, not drawing attention to themselves and then using it while OP is busy (at work in this case).

Just echoing what everyone else has said, OP, I think you need to look closer to home to solve this one.

I really do hope you get this sorted, but if you've explained this to the bank the way you've explained it here it's little wonder they've not ben able to help

If she'd checked her PIN when out and about and kept her card in her pocket or bag, separated from the rest of her cards, then someone could have seen the PIN and swiped her card without her noticing. The thing about checking your PIN on the app is that it's the sort of interaction you could easily forget about, hence asking.

I would agree that it's more likely to be someone the OP knows - not necessarily someone who lives in her household - but we don't have enough information to make a reasonable guess.

OP - once you've calmed down, I think you need to have a go at re-summarising what you know happened and contact customer support again through the app. I think if you start again with a clearer attempt at explaining, you might get more support from Starling. I think the issue was you tried to fill in too many blanks by guessing, and making up guesses has only muddied the waters by undermining your truth.

Op which card did you use in Aldi? Was it your linked card or the actual card that is now missing. This is quite an important detail. You need to check your account and see. Do not assume.

OP, post on the legal advice UK page of Reddit. They give very helpful advice on there and anything that is unhelpful gets deleted. You’ll have more help there. But be clear in your post - as a big issue with your case is that you told the bank you had your card but later realised that wasn’t the case.

OP none of this makes any sense if you bank with Starling.

If your card was stolen/lost, you go into the app and turn it off, so the card can't be used.

And even if you didn't do that, you would get a notification on the app telling you exactly when the card was used. I am often still at the contactless/chip and PIN machine when my phone buzzes! So if you card buzzed to tell you it had been used after the first transaction, why on earth didn't you turn it off at that point?

your phone buzzed