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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

the "don't have kids if u can't afford them" mentality...

644 replies

MermaidCheeks · 06/08/2022 14:23

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?

If only those who could really afford to have kids had them - a decreasing well-off demographic -we'd be even more fucked than we already are.

Immigration is not a long-term solution when 80% of elderly are going to be spread across low and middle-affluent countries by 2050, either. Every country is going to need their own citizens.

Instead of resenting people who need their wages topped-up by the government in order to afford having a couple of kids - maybe embrace those who are making sacrifices to have kids at all, especially in the face of the overwhelming decrease in value that society and successive governments have placed on the role of raising children.

OP posts:
Watchamocauli · 07/08/2022 22:34

Thankfully 72% think OP is unreasonable. The world population is destroying this planet and all OP cares about is old age care homes.

No one is stopping people from having kids but why have more than you can afford? Taxes are high enough to care for the state, elderly, sick and disabled. Please don't burden society and create more inequities.

99redballoonsgobyy · 07/08/2022 22:38

Also I think another possible reason couples only have small families in the UK these days is simply not having enough room in our tiny houses. I have 2 dcs a girl & a boy in a tiny 3 bed semi so a small room each for dc. And as they are likely to remain at home these days until well into their 20s maybe even 30s due to housing costs and shortage I think it's important everyone has their own space. If I'd have had 4 or more kids it would be incredibly cramped. Years ago in the era of large families all poor working class kids slept 4 to a bed but would all leave home as teenagers simply not possible these days.

pearlygreen · 07/08/2022 22:41

I do think it's utterly selfish to have dc you can't afford. Surely anyone who has done this realises it too?! I had one dc then fell on hard times. So I still have one dc 9 years later. I love my dc like there's no tomorrow and would love more but I owe it to my current dc to ensure I can provide a comfortable life for them, this includes spending enough time with them etc.

I will never understand those already struggling financially or otherwise going on to have numerous dc. And I resent the government having to stretch resources further to help pay for them.

Lovely13 · 07/08/2022 22:53

Jacob Rees mogg has six children.Boris Johnson a large unknown number of offspring. If that isn’t the case for the wealthy classes to stop breeding…doing far more damage to us than any poor family on benefits

TSIFT · 07/08/2022 23:22

Believeitornot · 07/08/2022 00:15

I strongly suggest you educate yourself. A very ignorant point of view. There’s plenty of research on this.

Many children in poverty cannot access a decent education actually. Outcomes are determined by your parents’ economic circumstances and the first 5 years are important.

Those who make it are few and far between. They’ll be held up as good examples simply because it is not the norm.

So, why do immigrant children do so well?
They have a language barrier too!
If the native poor wanted an education they could just turn up at their free local state school.
Their parents could help.
Their immigrant counterparts manage just fine.

TSIFT · 07/08/2022 23:24

Lovely13 · 07/08/2022 22:53

Jacob Rees mogg has six children.Boris Johnson a large unknown number of offspring. If that isn’t the case for the wealthy classes to stop breeding…doing far more damage to us than any poor family on benefits

They can afford their kids.
They are not expecting someone else to fund them.

antelopevalley · 07/08/2022 23:58

@TSIFT Immigrant families might be doing in the main low-paid work, but many are educated and had responsible jobs.Imagine a British family where both parents are Drs who are forced to flee abroad. Of course their children will do better than a local family with poorly educated parents who have always done low paid work.

ldontWanna · 07/08/2022 23:58

So, why do immigrant children do so well?
They have a language barrier too!
If the native poor wanted an education they could just turn up at their free local state school.
Their parents could help.
Their immigrant counterparts manage just fine.

Immigrant children aren't a homogenous group. You will find that outcomes can and do differ depending on their country of origin.

You're also making a few assumptions. First, that they all have a language barrier. Second, that they must be poor. Otherwise,you're not comparing like for like.

The main difference in the groups that do have better outcomes is a great respect and interest in their child's education. The kids rarely miss school, the parents have a significant interest in their child's schooling, a lot are being tutored(starting in y2, if not even earlier) ,even if it's tricky financially, some map their children's education from when they are toddlers. Most importantly they recognise that a good education is the "way out".

It takes a certain level of skill and perseverance to settle and make a life in a completely different country. Add in a good education(even if working in a NMW job ) and their kids are miles ahead. The ones that have educated and successful immigrant parents, even more so.

antelopevalley · 08/08/2022 00:02

And agree that not all immigrants are poor. Sikh families, whether British or immigrants, on average earn more than British Christian families.
Also in some countries, the culture of practically helping each other to improve their life, means some members can get better-paid jobs, that would not have been possible otherwise.

WanderingFruitWonderer · 08/08/2022 02:40

I think some people still haven't grasped how incredibly serious the climate crisis is. We're potentially facing catastrophic food shortages in a few years. Unless drastic action is taken soon, society as we know it will collapse. To me, this is the real issue in terms of reproduction these days. Financial affordability is secondary. Money and the economy are really just artificial constructs. But ecological disaster is real. I really do feel so sorry for babies being born into the world today 😔

Harmonypuss · 08/08/2022 06:12

My mindset regarding having children may not be very popular but I do agree that if someone can't support themselves without state financial help, they shouldn't be making their situation worse by adding children into the mix.
I have 2 sons who are now mid 20s and early 30s. I was married when I had them and in a reasonably paid job, as was my husband.
As we both worked f/t, we had to have childcare and had to pay for it, there was none of this 'free x hours of childcare'.
The marriage failed and I ended up raising the boys singlehandedly without any financial assistance from their father, family or the state.
I am also disabled but managed to hold down my job until my youngest was 15, at which point I was made redundant, my health had deteriorated and I found it necessary to claim benefits.
But I'd paid for all of the pre-school, out of school hours and holiday clubs for both of them before I needed to claim benefits.
A few weeks ago, for a thread on some other message board, I tried to calculate how much paid-for care had cost over the years and this, as well as feeding, clothing, entertaining, etc, needs to be factored into the calculations around whether people feel they can afford to have kids. Bearing in mind that I was paying for childcare between the late 80s and around 2008, I must have spent in excess of £120,000 purely on childcare.
Factor in price increases over the the past 14yrs since I finished paying for this care and I would expect that childcare between birth and approx 12yrs of age is likely to cost somewhere in the region of £90-100k at today's prices.
I really don't know how your average couple, with average jobs and high rent or mortgage payments can actually afford to bring children into the world these days.
This is where my opinions may be seen to be somewhat strict....I think the Chinese have the right idea, 2 children max. I wouldn't impose quite such strict financial tests as they do, although, as many PPs have said, if people are starting from a financial point of being on benefits, they clearly can't afford to support children, but if they have the requisite finances to have kids then at a later point experience a financial setback, that would be different and I'd expect them to be making every effort to improve their situation and not be relying indefinitely on state financial assistance, unless they are physically incapable due to ill health.

axolotlfloof · 08/08/2022 06:43

We are an over populated country.
Very few people want to raise kids in order for them to be carers. My kids have very different aspirations.
I think voluntary euthanasia should definitely be an option, having a recent experience of the terminally ill.
Old age for many is not a positive experience.
People having kids they can't afford to feed is a poor solution to a non existent problem.

GoodThinkingMax · 08/08/2022 06:58

I think voluntary euthanasia should definitely be an option, having a recent experience of the terminally ill.

Given the attitudes towards people of old age on MN, and particularly the often quite nasty attitudes to older women, I think this should never be an option.

Someone who is terminally I’ll can still enjoy living, for as long as they have got.

Okbye · 08/08/2022 07:32

It kills me that some people continue to reproduce when they can't afford it/don't have the means of giving them a decent life.

I've worked in social housing since 2007 and the entitlement of some people blows my mind! A woman was shouting at me not so long ago because she's got 6 kids in a 2 bed house (that she's lived in for years) and she was cross that I couldn't just magic a lovely 4 bed house out of my arse. Not being funny love, but why oh why continue to get pregnant when you haven't got any fucking space?!! It baffles me!

Camomila · 08/08/2022 07:46

Their immigrant counterparts manage just fine.

Refugees may be living in poverty in the UK but might have been doctors/lawyers etc. in their home countries.

Voluntary/Economic migrants usually have quite a lot of "get up and go"...my parents moved to the UK partly because their village in Italy was overly conservative. FIL (originally from the Philippines) told us it was common there to "pick the smartest child" and that one gets bought the ticket to the US/Canada/UK and then has to support the rest of the family back home.

Confusedteatowel · 08/08/2022 08:07

Tbh I judge anyone with more than 2 kids, especially if they bang on about the environment/climate change.

Having a large family when you can't afford is also stupid.

Fizbosshoes · 08/08/2022 08:26

I don't think only the wealthy should have children, but i also don't think people should be entitled to have as many children as they want without thinking about how they will be supported (financially and in other ways)

Of course situations change and anyone could go from being comfortably able to support their kids to struggling (through unemployment, illness, disability, one parent leaving, or becoming widowed, or any number of other factors) However I think its different when families already struggling, or in unsuitable accommodation, choose to have a 3rd/4th/5th child.

SoapboxJudges · 08/08/2022 08:42

Johnnysgirl · 07/08/2022 18:22

If your issue is the welfare of the poor children growing up in disadvantaged circumstances, then surely you appreciate this is not the fault of the child and the best we, as a society, can do is to help such children out of their deprivation so that they don't repeat the same patterns?
How do you propose society help these children so that they don't repeat the same patterns? How does this actually work at the coal face, rather than an ideological concept?

Education. Education and opportunity.

SoapboxJudges · 08/08/2022 08:43

ldontWanna · 07/08/2022 19:26

Early intervention. Appropriate support. Funding for early intervention and prevention. More funding for children's centres, sure start centres, social services,mental health services, schools etc.

I had a kid start the year unable to read(and as such unable and unwilling to access most of his learning)hating reading, thinking he's stupid and useless and refusing to engage because he's stupid and useless. And repeat. At the end of the year he could read. Very basic ,simple books but the foundation is there. The interest is there. The love of reading is there. He will pick reading "his" books as a reward or when he wants to do something else. He asks to be read a book instead of wanting to play football all the time. He attempts to read other books all by himself, he asks for help etc. It was amazing to watch. Change can happen,progress can happen. As proud as I am of him (and myself slightly) it was so much hard work,trying to balance his needs with others', finding the time when I have a billion other jobs to do and always playing catch-up,building and feeding that interest and his self esteem etc. I'm hoping he now stand a chance, that he's one step closer to actually making it.

I've seen and taught (I'm a TA) so many kids like that. They're not all lost causes, and while yes , some might fall i to the same trap as their parents, many can make it with adequate interest,support and interventions. Be that academically,socially or from a safety point of view.

This

SoapboxJudges · 08/08/2022 08:45

Why is your anger targeted at individuals having babies - a very natural and organic process. Why are you not targeting your fury at the outrageous organisations who profiteer from the destruction of the planet whilst actively working to spread misinformation about the climate crisis so that they can defer regulation of their industry as much as possible and continue their destructive habits? We know the world is riddled with climate sceptics who have fuelled the debate of whether climate change is real when really there is no debate to be had. The likes of trump being elected as leaders of the most powerful countries where, if behaviourial change were to occur, the impact for the planet would be very real - is not a 'by chance' occurrence - there are active forces at play.

What matters is human consumption of precious resources. Why are we not already pressing those in power to make the change we all want to see? Why are political parties with green credentials not already running our countries? Why are we choosing politicians who promote greed and self interest over thosr who put the environment first? Humans have existed for most of time without damaging the planet in the ways we are now. It is not a certainty written in stone that more humans = more damage.

We, as a species, over eat, we over consume, we've voted in repeatedly political systems that foster and promote captialsitic models where "economic growth" must happen at all costs. Why are we not questioning these models ? This is where human behaviour has become destructive. having children has always and will always be a natural drive.

We have fewer children on average in more wealthy countries because we are more certain of their survival to a reproductive age, and this trend will continue. Where once natural disasters, child and maternal mortality, ill health and old age were big risks to life expectancy, good medical intervention means we are having fewer children and offering them a better standard of living. Rapid population growth has been a temporary phenomenon is most countries quickly followed by a decline in birth rate.

What is interesting, however, is a study in 2020 which revealed that the carbon emissions of the richest 1% of the world's population are responsible for more than twice as much carbon pollution as the 3.1 billion people who made up the poorest half of humanity! Looking at the consumption emissions of different income groups in a period which saw the doubling of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, the report found that the richest 10% blew one third of our remaining global carbon budget compared to just 4% of the poorest half of the population. So not only are the Jacob Rees Mogs and Boris' progeny worse by far for their consumption levels, they are infinitely worse because they are personally responsible for why we have not yet begun to tackle the climate crisis when they had the power to affect policy and bring about real change.

Tim Gore, the head of the climate policy at Oxfam said "the over consumption if a wealthy minority is fuelling the climate crisis, yet it is poor communities and young people who are paying the price. Such extreme carbon inequality is a direct consequence of our governments decades long pursuit of grossly unequal and carbon intensive economic growth."

So push your MPs and your government ministers to do more and act faster instead of turning your hatred to those in society who are the least powerful. It plays out like playground bullying. Have we not moved past this level of debate now.

AddieLoggins2 · 08/08/2022 09:12

Rather than thinking poor people shouldn't have children, I think a rich country shouldn't have poor people.

JorisBonson · 08/08/2022 09:26

AddieLoggins2 · 08/08/2022 09:12

Rather than thinking poor people shouldn't have children, I think a rich country shouldn't have poor people.

Rishi? Is that you?

AlaskaThunderfuckHiiiiiiiii · 08/08/2022 09:35

I think robots in peoples homes could be an answer to the community care issue, they could assist with washing, dressing and taking medications, meals etc and then those who are currently home carers could be more like visitors to give company to people who otherwise maybe wouldn’t get any.

Personally for me I’d rather shuffle off before becoming so I’ll as I need to rely on people heavily. Although I do think the last generation of people living to very old age is passing, I doubt I will see 90 etc as our diets are crap, we have more sedentary lives etc

IRememberXanadu · 08/08/2022 10:32

Okbye · 08/08/2022 07:32

It kills me that some people continue to reproduce when they can't afford it/don't have the means of giving them a decent life.

I've worked in social housing since 2007 and the entitlement of some people blows my mind! A woman was shouting at me not so long ago because she's got 6 kids in a 2 bed house (that she's lived in for years) and she was cross that I couldn't just magic a lovely 4 bed house out of my arse. Not being funny love, but why oh why continue to get pregnant when you haven't got any fucking space?!! It baffles me!

People relying on the state to financially support their kids after a change in circumstances that made them require such help, should get no help for any children they after after they end up on state support. You want more kids? Your choice - but don't expect others' tax money to pay for them.

DaisyWaldron · 08/08/2022 10:40

What do you think should happen to those children? Maybe they should be forcibly removed from their parents and adopted by wealthy people? Left to starve? Put into orphanages where they are trained up and sent out to work as carers and fruit-pickers until they've aid back the cost of their upbringing?

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