Page 17 | the "don't have kids if u can't afford them" mentality...

Lasagnainmyhair · 07/08/2022 02:52

I wouldn’t want my children to be looking after the aged.

why not?

GoodThinkingMax · 07/08/2022 03:01

But this is also stupid. Don’t pretend you are doing others people a favour by having children. No one is “making a sacrifice” to have kids for the hood of society, they are not having kids for selfless reasons.

This.

DottyPeacock · 07/08/2022 03:16

Lunar270 · 07/08/2022 02:25

Erm, why should I understand the difference between the USA and Scandinavian countries? Is it a requirement to be able to post?

I’m not sure I understand your question or the relevance to be honest.

Jesus wept. It's not a requirement but it helps to appreciate the US 'every man/woman for themselves ' vs a more equal and supportive Scandinavian model.

I asked the question because it's obvious, if you compare the two approaches to capitalist societies, how the respective peoples behave and the general attitudes. The quality of life is also deemed to be far higher and people more equal (class and gender).

Ok gotcha. You've reeled off some stats. Are you somehow genuinely suggesting that poor people are worse off or the same in Denmark (for instance) than the USA? If so I'll respectfully end the discussion there thanks.

For reasons I don’t really want to go into, I would say I have a fair insight into the mindset of ‘normal people’ in a couple of Scandinavian countries and they really aren’t all they are cracked up to be.

Denmark has great gender equality, but it’s definitely not ‘equal and supportive’ if you are black or gay’. Tax rates are very high and the gap between rich and poor in Denmark is growing at an alarming rate.

I’m not saying for a minute that Denmark is worse in terms of provision for the poor than the USA, but I am saying it’s not without its own problems. Denmark has a small population made mostly of Danes. The USA is obviously hugely more populated and made up of people from lots of nationalities and these all have an impact on the governance of a country. The 2 countries can’t have the same approach to society because their societies are so different and they really can’t be compared.

Moonisdown · 07/08/2022 04:03

@MermaidCheeks I must’ve missed all the droves of children living in poverty who went on to become doctors and nurses and qualified medical professionals 🙄 or do you mean that people who can’t afford their children go on to have children anyway but the children are brought up with the express purpose that their children will only ever work as carers.

Believeitornot · 07/08/2022 06:45

xippo · 07/08/2022 01:44

Looking at council/HA swap sites, SIL sends them to me as she’s looking to move. So many are in 1 bed flats for many years but still choose to have lots of children. Then blame the government for not providing them with bigger accommodation!!! Stop breeding.
I wouldn’t want my children to be looking after the aged.

How do you know this is the case for everyone living in council homes? You’re imagining these bogey men (or women) based in a very narrow mindset.

Do you think people on benefits or living in social housing are inherently “worse”?

Believeitornot · 07/08/2022 06:47

onthefencesitter · 07/08/2022 01:23

I am planning on having one child, but I don't think there is anything virtuous about this- its more for our own mental well being that this decision would mean that we can hopefully continue to stay in London in a big flat near family, not take a huge hit to our standard of living even if 15% inflation persists, have nice holidays and lots of meals out etc. Yes my future child would benefit from this, but he or she may not appreciate it much or be happy with it given that he or she would never know any other life. However, I would be hyper aware of my comfortable pre kids life. I know having a child would always involve some form of sacrifice financially but having more leeway in the budget goes a long way to alleviate stress and is a huge help. Would you rather be the parent who can afford to bring their kid to disney world and pay for university or the parent worrying about the cost of school meals, i bet the latter is more stressed.

Aside from the carbon footprint of additional children, I do admire the bravery of people who are able to produce children without having the means to provide for them. It must be difficult and stressful to provide for dependents on Universal Credit or minimum wage. I can't begin to comprehend how hard it is. There have been times esp when I first graduated when we had little money and esp when we were saving to buy our first flat; but I never found it too bad because it was just the two of us. It was romantic even at times. I can imagine that there is no more romance when there is a child thrown in and I find the thought of it terrifying tbh. Hats off to people who actively choose this.

What proportion of parents do you think have children without planning? Do you think you’re special because you’ve planned and saved?

Or actually that’s the approach most people take and those who have kids to “milk the system” are actually few and far between….. I know what I think because I am not so cynical or foolish. Or even arrogant.

girlmom21 · 07/08/2022 07:31

How do you know this is the case for everyone living in council homes? You’re imagining these bogey men (or women) based in a very narrow mindset.

They never said it's the case for everyone @Believeitornot. You seem to be projecting.

However I grew up on a council estate and have a number of friends who do exactly this and openly. And friends who've accepted 1 bedroom council flats because they know the council will have to rehouse them when they have children. I don't judge them. They're playing the system as it's so expensive to get private rental or buy, but lots of people do do it and to claim otherwise is naive.

Small80085 · 07/08/2022 07:35

Ugzbugz · 07/08/2022 01:37

I don't think many peiple comprehend the cost of nursery, childminders and 13 weeks of school and yes we all earn different money but it's insane to have multiple children.

Even if you are okay things can change. I have one through situation and now absolute choice, it's an insane cost and people cannot expect the tax payer to cough up.

you better get used to it. Most people can't fork out for the equivalent of another months rent (£1000-14000) every month to pay for nursery. And will get some subsidisation.

If you're entitled to funding and want a child, who is turning that down to satisfy randoms?

Believeitornot · 07/08/2022 07:40

girlmom21 · 07/08/2022 07:31

How do you know this is the case for everyone living in council homes? You’re imagining these bogey men (or women) based in a very narrow mindset.

They never said it's the case for everyone @Believeitornot. You seem to be projecting.

However I grew up on a council estate and have a number of friends who do exactly this and openly. And friends who've accepted 1 bedroom council flats because they know the council will have to rehouse them when they have children. I don't judge them. They're playing the system as it's so expensive to get private rental or buy, but lots of people do do it and to claim otherwise is naive.

I’m not projecting - projecting what exactly?

I am reading peoples comments and there is no subtlety. Even you’re doing it!

They can’t do anything other than take a one bed if they don’t have much choice. And they may be saying one thing to you, but it doesn’t mean they’re actively seeking more children to get a bigger house. Children cost money and they will know that. Any gains are marginal. Maybe they just want children, maybe some of the children were unplanned but because of judgement, they tell a different story.

Anyway, all of this distracts from the fact that our economy is failing so many people who are working and trying to provide but can’t because of depressed wages. And to add insult to injury, are written off as irresponsible for having children.

Believeitornot · 07/08/2022 07:42

I find it telling that this thread ends up being about people on benefits. But we are talking also about people who have jobs such as teachers, nurses, etc who can’t earn enough to support a family because of our low paid economy which seems to favour and overpay certain jobs at the expense of others.

girlmom21 · 07/08/2022 08:03

They can’t do anything other than take a one bed if they don’t have much choice.

I'm talking about childless people who specifically say "I've been offered a one bedroom flat which is great because they'll have to give me somewhere bigger once I have children."

I'm not stupid - I know it doesn't always work out like that. There were 7 of us in a 3 bed council house. It wasn't planned that way - we became a blended family - but my parents applied for a 4 bed repeatedly and never got one.

That doesn't mean some people don't approach it in that way.

Believeitornot · 07/08/2022 08:05

girlmom21 · 07/08/2022 08:03

They can’t do anything other than take a one bed if they don’t have much choice.

I'm talking about childless people who specifically say "I've been offered a one bedroom flat which is great because they'll have to give me somewhere bigger once I have children."

I'm not stupid - I know it doesn't always work out like that. There were 7 of us in a 3 bed council house. It wasn't planned that way - we became a blended family - but my parents applied for a 4 bed repeatedly and never got one.

That doesn't mean some people don't approach it in that way.

They’re stating a fact about getting a bigger property if they have children. Maybe they’re just happy to get a home….

But that doesn’t automatically mean they are having children to specifically get a bigger place….

Mentallydrained2022 · 07/08/2022 08:20

Having 3+ children on a low income is selfish imo. Lots of families do it living in 2 bedroom houses, reliant on benefits, can’t afford decent food, clothes etc and they continue to have more children.
i guess my belief is because we stopped at 2, I would’ve liked more but we couldn’t afford to give any future children the same opportunities we can with 2.
We are very fortunate we can afford all of the above and days out, extra curricular activities and a holiday a year. Having a further child would’ve changed that and so we decided not to.
im not by any means saying the nice stuff is needed, it’s a luxury and I’m aware of that what I’m saying is parents should consider the standard of life they are bringing a child into before getting pregnant.
i also believe it should as a minimum we should be able to afford 2 children if working so I do think our country is messed up with its low incomes and high cost of childcare.

Fizbosshoes · 07/08/2022 08:28

I sometimes feel frustrated at articles (mentioned by PP) where a family are appealing to the council/HA to be rehoused because of overcrowding, and it turns out they've had several more children since feeling their accommodation was insufficient.
However usually the frustration is at myself for reading these type of articles because I'm sure they're edited/printed to illicit prejudice.

SomePosters · 07/08/2022 08:30

Johnnysgirl · 07/08/2022 01:03

That sounds like a 10 year old's argument. So simplistic...
Who will fund these "decent" wages for all, regardless of field/trade?

Show quote history

Eh?

how is paying the poorest people a living wage a childish argument?

If your business can’t support its staff it shouldn’t have them.

surry it’s irresponsible to keep taking in more employees than your business can afford to support?

HannahSternDefoe · 07/08/2022 08:31

BigChesterDraws · 06/08/2022 15:03

Oh goodie, the old “my children will be working to pay your pension” myth. No, they won’t. The working childless people have paid more than their fair share into the pension pot throughout their lives. They have continuously paid into the “general welfare fund” without receiving child benefit, SMP, tax credits, free school meals, or any other such benefits.

Your children will be working for their own pension. If they have a job. They could be on the dole their entire lives, in prison, unable to work through accident or illness. No one can predict the future.

Who do we think will be caring for us in old age? If we need care, and remember not every 80-year-old is in a nursing home and advances in science mean that people are living independently longer, it will be someone that we pay to look after us. Your children might be glad of the job opportunity.

^THIS.

Also...

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?

Someone who wasn't born in the UK or EU from what I've seen about NHS and recruitment/staff retention.

SomePosters · 07/08/2022 08:32

Believeitornot · 07/08/2022 07:42

I find it telling that this thread ends up being about people on benefits. But we are talking also about people who have jobs such as teachers, nurses, etc who can’t earn enough to support a family because of our low paid economy which seems to favour and overpay certain jobs at the expense of others.

Exactly

people are encouraged to blame each other and not notice what’s going on at the top as they’re too busy fight over scraps

SomePosters · 07/08/2022 08:33

Same shit different day

the "don't have kids if u can't afford them" mentality...

Roady1 · 07/08/2022 08:42

maybe embrace those who are making sacrifices to have kids at all

I hate this stupid argument.

I'm not saying I always agree with the don't have kids if you can't afford it stuff but seriously, don't pretend you're having kids to do anyone else a favour. You're doing it because you want kids, not for any aging population, you are doing it for you, no one else.

ulteriorbread · 07/08/2022 08:54

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Mouldyfoodhelp · 07/08/2022 08:57

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?

This is a pretty fucked up way to look at children, like women are just giving birth to slaves to be looked after later in life. Handmaid's tale esque

Cornettoninja · 07/08/2022 09:20

Mouldyfoodhelp · 07/08/2022 08:57

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?

This is a pretty fucked up way to look at children, like women are just giving birth to slaves to be looked after later in life. Handmaid's tale esque

Well it is when you look at it from that perspective but from a different perspective that’s exactly how society (any society) has always functioned. We replenish society by providing new members to continue the work needed (whether that’s basic survival or economic success).

Education is part of the same thing. We don’t educate our children on mass for the simple love of learning and knowledge, it’s to ensure that everyone has a basic enough level of education that society can operate on a higher level than say, 200 years ago. Pros and cons are obvious but society has shifted with technology and pursuit of wealth.

turbonerd · 07/08/2022 09:37

@Lunar270
a voice of reason, finally.
i was getting worried reading this thread.

the system for work and childcare can be vastly inproved by the UK government; subsidised to a much higher degree so that people (mainly women) can choose to enter the workforce and make their own money.
the minimum wage must be raised and there should be a cap on the higher earners, to level out the inequalities in income. I am not advocating communism by the way. But a less polarised society.

I was shocked when I realised that in the UK I would go in minus continuing working once my child was born. One of many shocking discoveries of how a so-called civilised and rich country operates.

it is primitive, CAUSES poverty ad infinitum and, as this thread shows, turns people against eachother.

And have no fear; I did not like it so I went back home. 😁
I have 3 DC, one with severe disabilities, and the state in my country funded my re-education and housing for 4 yrs so I could be able to work, AND subsidises childcare so that I now can work in a decently paid job (80% covers our needs very comfortably).
if I had stayed in the UK I would have been stuck. And people would have said I should not have had my last child 🤷🏽‍♀️

(mind you, I did start re-training with the OU and would have done everything in my power to have a job that could fit around my disabled child if I had stayed in the UK)

my point being: it is political, systemic change that is needed. A re-evaluation of what society values, what is important for a good life, equality - there is only surface equality in the UK. The money is definitely there.

otherwise the serpent will devour its own tail.

MyDarlingClementine · 07/08/2022 09:45

I think there is a massive difference between having one or maybe two children and not being 100% financially secure or being creative to pay for them and having more than that with no means to fund them?

MyDarlingClementine · 07/08/2022 09:46

And yes, minimum wage and tax thresholds need raising.