the "don't have kids if u can't afford them" mentality...

[MermaidCheeks]

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?

If only those who could really afford to have kids had them - a decreasing well-off demographic -we'd be even more fucked than we already are.

Immigration is not a long-term solution when 80% of elderly are going to be spread across low and middle-affluent countries by 2050, either. Every country is going to need their own citizens.

Instead of resenting people who need their wages topped-up by the government in order to afford having a couple of kids - maybe embrace those who are making sacrifices to have kids at all, especially in the face of the overwhelming decrease in value that society and successive governments have placed on the role of raising children.

There’s a bit of prejudice right there 👍

And sometimes @Johnnysgirl the simplest answers are the best ones.

The environmental impact of a single person is many many times greater than that of cars or air travel!

And yet the arguement continues that people should have as many children as they choose, regardless of affordability 🤷🏻‍♀️
Because the welfare system has evolved to pick up the slack...

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here. Are you suggesting the welfare system has created the problem? That our society is the way it is because of the safety net of the Welfare system? So what if it has? What does that change exactly? That would make the argument for the continuation, or even the increase of welfare to those in need stronger surely? Because the problem is HERE, it is very present and the country doesn't get to put their hands up and say "well that didn't work like we thought it would?" If access to benefits allowed people to feel secure in their life and make choices they otherwise wouldn't have made, it doesn't mean that they deserve the rug to get pulled. I believe that the social problems in our country will take decades (centuries?) to improve and that is only with structured planning and significant effort. So we are screwed really, because that isn't going to happen. You look at large families dependant on benefits and you see a drain on society because of the resources they receive and (in your view) waste. I look at large families on benefits and I see people who want more, feel trapped and unhappy and had very little chance to begin with and I desperately believe many of them would be happier in a stronger, safer, working environment.

And I have one child, and I have never accessed benefits as an adult, not that it makes me a better person - Just to clarify any prejudice you think I may have (brought up in poverty with a single mother on benefits though so I have experienced the reality).

@Believeitornot

IMO we're in a stupid situation where pay is so low that benefits are necessary just to live. It's been like this for aeons but no government is able to tackle it and instead give tax breaks and subsidies to companies so they can maximise profits. We need a serious redistribution of wealth as the current way isn't working.

I am planning on having one child, but I don't think there is anything virtuous about this- its more for our own mental well being that this decision would mean that we can hopefully continue to stay in London in a big flat near family, not take a huge hit to our standard of living even if 15% inflation persists, have nice holidays and lots of meals out etc. Yes my future child would benefit from this, but he or she may not appreciate it much or be happy with it given that he or she would never know any other life. However, I would be hyper aware of my comfortable pre kids life. I know having a child would always involve some form of sacrifice financially but having more leeway in the budget goes a long way to alleviate stress and is a huge help. Would you rather be the parent who can afford to bring their kid to disney world and pay for university or the parent worrying about the cost of school meals, i bet the latter is more stressed.

Aside from the carbon footprint of additional children, I do admire the bravery of people who are able to produce children without having the means to provide for them. It must be difficult and stressful to provide for dependents on Universal Credit or minimum wage. I can't begin to comprehend how hard it is. There have been times esp when I first graduated when we had little money and esp when we were saving to buy our first flat; but I never found it too bad because it was just the two of us. It was romantic even at times. I can imagine that there is no more romance when there is a child thrown in and I find the thought of it terrifying tbh. Hats off to people who actively choose this.

You look at large families dependant on benefits and you see a drain on society because of the resources they receive and (in your view) waste. I look at large families on benefits and I see people who want more, feel trapped and unhappy and had very little chance to begin with and I desperately believe many of them would be happier in a stronger, safer, working environment.
That's fair enough.
For clarity, btw, the evolvement of the benefit system remark was in response to @Lunar270 's frankly strange notion on how we use the system differently from it's original purpose now, due to our "greater understanding".
I don't understand, and she hasn't been able to explain.

I don't think many peiple comprehend the cost of nursery, childminders and 13 weeks of school and yes we all earn different money but it's insane to have multiple children.

Even if you are okay things can change. I have one through situation and now absolute choice, it's an insane cost and people cannot expect the tax payer to cough up.

@Johnnysgirl

I replied to your assertion that my post was strange but it's very evident from your posts that you simply don't have the capacity to understand it (or the original statement) given what you've just written.

And people complain childcare is to high yet these people look after our kids for a pittance whilst we earn more??

I saved up before having my children. I knew I wanted a year at home with each of them so saved up quite a lot of money, on top of our savings before having each child. My DC are grown up now but my dd also saved before having both her son's. People don't have their DC in the expectation that they will become carers as careers. I would be disappointed if my dogs were to become carers.

Looking at council/HA swap sites, SIL sends them to me as she’s looking to move. So many are in 1 bed flats for many years but still choose to have lots of children. Then blame the government for not providing them with bigger accommodation!!! Stop breeding.
I wouldn’t want my children to be looking after the aged.

Yes this is it. Of course shit happens and people need help but the attitude of people thinking they are owed it. So many people want more kids but they can't and don't.

The best way to reduce the gap between rich and poor is for the rich to have more children than the poor. At the moment its the other way round so the gap gets bigger.

Erm, why should I understand the difference between the USA and Scandinavian countries? Is it a requirement to be able to post?

I’m not sure I understand your question or the relevance to be honest.

I assume your perception is that Scandinavian countries have it nailed. Scratch the surface a little and you’ll see they’re in no better position than the UK.

The Scandinavian city that in recent years has had a higher murder rate than New York?

The Scandinavian country where the youth are at the highest risk of depression in Europe?

The Scandinavian country where healthcare quality depends on where you live?

The Scandinavian country who has the same issues as the uk where their benefits system cannot afford to continue in their current format?

Which are you referring to as the model on which to look to for guidance?

Which specific Scandinavian country would that be?

You mention parents but how do you think you can stop the cycle so that the children become better people when they become parents themselves?
Almost as if parents are the last people you'd expect to take responsibility for their children's wellbeing...

How do you think the cycle can be stopped, given the people who need state intervention in their lives are the one's who reject it most?

Quite! I think it’s part of the problem that some people think it’s someone else job to look after their children…

If it was up to me I'd pay people not to have children.The people least suited to having children would take the money. The people most suited to have children would reject it.

A range of different countries. You weren’t specific on your criteria for defining ‘the best’. They all have their problems.

Erm, why should I understand the difference between the USA and Scandinavian countries? Is it a requirement to be able to post?

I’m not sure I understand your question or the relevance to be honest.

Jesus wept. It's not a requirement but it helps to appreciate the US 'every man/woman for themselves ' vs a more equal and supportive Scandinavian model.

I asked the question because it's obvious, if you compare the two approaches to capitalist societies, how the respective peoples behave and the general attitudes. The quality of life is also deemed to be far higher and people more equal (class and gender).

Ok gotcha. You've reeled off some stats. Are you somehow genuinely suggesting that poor people are worse off or the same in Denmark (for instance) than the USA? If so I'll respectfully end the discussion there thanks.

You mention parents but how do you think you can stop the cycle so that the children become better people when they become parents themselves?

I studied Bowens Theory years ago, it brought up some interesting concepts about intergenerational issues and covers family systems theory.

bowentheoryacademy.org/bowen-theory/bowen-theory-history-and-concepts

Might be worth a read

You two are a class act. Unbelievable.