AIBU to not know the point of capitalism?

[TooBigForMyBoots]

OK, so I'm not an idiot. Did politics, economics, languages and other stuff. Got a degree and everything. I've studied ideologies/religions/philosophies and lived for 50 years. Paid close attention to the news/history along the way. Somehow though, I seem to have forgotten why Capitalism is a good thing. And the actual point of it.

Back in the day, I understood it as innovation and talent being exhalted by consumer demand for the goods/services in a competitive market. Hard work achieving rewards. Demand and supply (including supply of labour) balancing out.

But it seems it is just about very rich and super rich people getting richer while those who actually work, MC/WC whatever are expected to pay. Intelligence and hard work aren't important and won't necessarily get you ahead.

Being minted and connected to politicians certainly will. Is this Capitalism in 2022? Or AIBU and missing something?

Well you have got the point haven't you? Minted people get more minted off the back of other people and then everyone buys crap. No-one complains, we just seem to like the idea that we too can be Jeff Bezos or our kids Elon Musk if we just worked harder. If anyone complains it's just 'envy'

In some instances it can boost innovation and living standards but not when it goes unchecked alongside corruption and massively inherited wealth.

Such heavy thinking. Capitalism can mean anything from owning mobile phones, designer trainings to big global business.

This is capitalism in 2022

go back about 30 years and we had more of a mixed economy. That seems to have vanished as a concept. Even Thatcher thought we shouldn't nationalise the railways.

It is exponential growth which only really happens in a linear fashion. Totally unsustainable but as long as we keep it moving it'll never stop.

I thought that was Consumerism @Mississipi71?

Capitalism is the direct opposite of Communism, whereby in theory, everything (goods/resources etc) are shared.

Its based on the "trickle-down" theory which is situation where a number of people or corporations completely own the means of producing stuff (land/businesses/food/services whatever) and then everyone else gets gradually richer as things develop and consume more.

Coda: have had some wines

Sorry. To attempt an answer: capitalism and patriarchal systems are hand in glove: Control (and the benefits) of resources.

That is the point of Capitalism.

Thing is I don’t think that proper capitalism exists (or ever did) in Britain. Tories/ Tory voters are people who just want to make money and look after themselves. However what has enabled a lot of them is that post war (so fairly recent in a way when looking at baby boomers and their life style/voting choices) is that we have a society that is a hybrid of socialism both under the Thatcher and this government.

Its an absolute shite show - I’ve got no idea where Britain will end up tbh but ‘capitalism’ doesn’t exist here for the ‘working man/woman’ as was the Tory way in years gone by.

Capitalism doesn't need an ideology or to be applied/imposed by a part of socuety in order to happen.

I thought capitalism was about letting the market allocate resources. How do you get people to do an undesirable job - you pay them more. They can do something with that money (eg buy a desirable thing or retire early).

how do you make most benefit from a desirable thing - you can increase the price. So people work hard and compete to make a desirable thing. So I guess that increases the quality of the product.

I guess it is quite an efficient system because it doesn’t need central planners directing people to do certain jobs and make tons of decisions. Each person just makes their own decisions depending on their preferences and the environment.

I agree that unregulated capitalism is bad. And certain things eg COVID vaccines should not go simply to the highest bidder (though interestingly on a country level it sort of played out like this). But for non essential goods I think it is ok (though probably environmental levies should apply). I think expectation of high economic growth is probably not realistic and bad for the planet.

I'm a Marxist and even I don't think capitalism has been pointless.

It’s not working very well for the vast majority of us is it? Whatever it actually is we have going on which seems to be a complete hybrid really

OP I am surprised you used to believe those things but I guess that's how the Conservative party and the right of centre have traditionally sold our economic model to the masses, ie hard work achieving reward. Obviously the left is much more interventionist, recognising that the free market isn't the answer to everyone's problems and that government should play a bigger role in helping to level out the playing field.

Are you saying that you used to be fully signed up to capitalism as the answer to all our problems and never questioned it, and now you are finally questioning it? If so I am baffled as to why it has taken you so long.

Is this Capitalism in 2022?

I'm not an expert but I read once that capitalism is one of the few set-ups that has actually stood the test of time (talking relatively modern times here of course).

But what we have now is not really capitalism. I've heard people calling it "Crony Capitalism" and I think this is true, the system we have is a bit like rigged monopoly.
In monopoly it takes a certain amount of skill and a certain amount of luck. Theoretically you'll do best if you have both, but you'd probably still do alright if you only had one.

This is like playing monopoly where half the players have already started, the rules keep changing, Dog gets £1000 for passing go while Thimble gets £100, and even if you use every bit of skill you have to save up to buy Whitechapel Road, Tophat gets to say who can buy it because he owns the rights to the entire row which he'll pass on to his son, and since Tophat went to school with Wheelbarrow you've got absolutely no chance.

You can't say "fuck this, I want to play chess" instead - because at least over there with enough skill and dedication you could get better - there is only rigged monopoly. You MUST play. You can't just take yourself off to the woods, build a tiny cabin, and quietly live off your wee bit land with your solar panels because it's all been bought up by massive conglomerates to offset carbon and milk the state (aka YOU AND ME) for government subsidies (aka OUR TAXES).

At this point I think we either need more regulation and collectivism (so closer to communism) or more freedom and individualism (so closer to libertarianism). Right now we have a hodge-podge of both, with no real rhyme nor reason for what we apply each category to or who they apply to. This is why the lucky can get multi-million pound NHS contracts while the skilled will go bust within a year.

After the last few years and the ever growing nanny state that is SNP rule, I'm inclined to go the libertarian route. I don't care about having a small state, I want a lean state, with as much freedom to do what is best for me and mine as possible. I've been a socialist my whole life so I wouldn't mind if we went the other way either, but I'm not sure if that can ever work when you're supposed to be 'collective' about 68 million people. Nor am I sure I could ever trust a government enough not to fuck it up. And everything I've seen up to this point tells me they'd fuck it up.

I think most "models" would work to the extent that the vast majority of people could live a relatively happy and fulfilling lives, but only at a population scale in the hundreds or thousands. Small enough for fairness and compassion and accountability but big enough to get things done. The bigger it gets the more it's corrupted, and by the time you're talking in terms of millions it's just a slow but steady road towards collapse.

I wouldn't say I was ever fully signed up to Capitalism, I understood it as my OP. As a teen I thought I was a Communist, but then I studied it and thought "That's not going to work".😆

I can see the point of Communism however, a utopia where all needs are met. I just can't see similar in Capitalism.

How do you get people to do an undesirable job - you pay them more.

Capitalism, yes. Socialist crony capitalism, no. This doesn't work when you have 'open borders' between countries with vastly different costs of living but cheap and easy transport of people and assets, and a state funded benefit system which pays working people according to their circumstances.

I say that as someone who in theory has always supported both btw.

Me too.🍷 And quite a bit of gin.😳

Communism is a much better idea, i.e., “a system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs”.

What could be better or fairer than that?

Unfortunately like all good ideas it has been ruined by corrupt people.

We are all unbelievably wealthy when compared to some other nations and to our own 100 years ago.
Not just in money and goods but in leisure time, education, health…

Capitalism is natural and moral. It asserts that what's rightfully yours is yours, and no one has the right to take it from you. You get what's rightfully yours by working. Either you make the thing yourself, or you provide value to the person making it, so that they give you one.

The only caveat is that as a society we also need a social net to provide for those who are incapable of working, due to sickness etc. So as human beings we have an obligation not to allow other human beings to die of starvation.

But I'd qualify this obligation to apply only to those who are also trying, yet failing through no fault of their own. Otherwise, we don't owe anyone more than they owe themselves, and if a person makes a choice not to work, it's not up to anyone else to work for them.

...if a person makes a choice not to work, it's not up to anyone else to work for them.

That is not unique to Capitalism. I can't think of any system that says you can choose to sit on your arse doing fuck all while others have to feed you.🤷‍♀️ Communism doesn't even say that.

Actually, Capitalism does allow the sitting on your hole doing nothing, as long as you have the money.😵‍💫

How do the Kardashians fit into your model of Capitalism @SaltFlakes?

Why do you ask specifically about the Kardahians? And not any other entertainer.

I'm not sure what the Kardashians have got to do with it, but if you're asking how they got rich seemingly for doing nothing, it's because they provided value to many people. Value can be practical or spiritual/emotional.

Someone who gives you a spoon provides practical value, someone who reads you a story provides spiritual value.

The Kardashians, much like any other entertainer, are providing something that people enjoy. And for that, people are willing to pay.