Why are we accepting migrant worker deaths in Qatar for the sake of entertainment?

[pieami]

I'm disgusted that we have accepted any deaths for the mere purpose of putting on a sporting event - totally unjustifiable. One death is too many. Why could the event not be held in a country with existing infrastructure?

One reports found "50 workers died and more than 500 others were seriously injured in Qatar in 2021 alone".

I have a feeling there is less of an outrage due to the workers being brown.

3 work related deaths doesn’t seem unusually unsafe to me? Out of 9 countries that have hosted the FIFA World Cup, Qatar has tied for 3rd safest with the USA.

The two worst safety wise were Russia with 21 deaths and Italy with 24 deaths.

Where there accusations of lack of outrage due to racism for the 3 deaths in the USA?

I really don’t know where to start with what you have written. Your version of events is not described in any of the substantial number of books I have read on WW1 and its impact on the Middle East.

Turkey did not exist until the 20th century - there was no concept of turkey before the Ottoman Empire. Further, the Ottomans began empire building in 13/14C so had been there for quite some time (and took many of the lands from Roman (Byzantine) and Mamluks (Muslim slave army from Egypt). They held the area we now call Syria from 16th Century. So, as was the norm for these times, there were empires growing and fading all the time. But that is mostly irrelevant - what we are discussing is the impact the British and French action post WW1.

The idea that France and UK attacked Ottomans because of the way they were treating Christians is also wrong - it was because the Ottomans - previously neutral - announced they would fight with the Central Powers. They only captured Syrian cities with the help of the Arabs as I outline below:

The British (via T.E Lawrence) were working with the Arabs of the Hejaz to try to persuade them to revolt against the Ottomans. The Arabs did fight on the allied side - helping to defeat the Ottomans (which allowed the allies to capture Greater Syria including Jerusalem and Damascus). During this time the British promised the Arabs would get independence as a rewards for helping the allies during the war (McMahon-Hussein correspondence). However, secretly the French and British also drew up the Sykes-Picot Agreement which was an arrangement as to how they would share the Ottomans lands at the end of the war - Lebanon/Syria going to France, Palestine/Transjordan/Mesopotamia going to UK. Look at google maps and you will see the straight line split.
Further, in 1917 the British signed the Balfour Agreement which aimed to establish a Jewish state in the lands of Palestine

Both France and Britain tried to hold on to these states (or maintaining control of them) for as long as they could. For Britain establishing a friendly Jewish state at the head of the Suez Canal was hugely strategic as it provided a link to the jewel in the crown - India. The British also wanted control of the newly discovered Iraqi oil fields (as just before WW! They had changed their navy ships from coal to oil-fired so oil became huge national security issue). In the end both countries had to be forced to relinquish control of these colonised lands. And the really only did because after WW2 they were so broke - and both their empires were dying - Suez Crisis was final nail in coffin for British Empire (and a embarrassment for us too)

The impact of the land carve-up after WW1 is still felt today. So whilst some may say that we have to move on from the past - we can’t really do that until we, as the aggressors, acknowledge our role and the damage it caused.

There have been some awful cases in Qatar. A Nigerian woman burned and sent back to Nigeria where she died, the authorities tried to cover up how it happened. They just wanted her out of the country so they didn't have to record her death.

Another woman from the Philippines I think, attacked and killed by a Lion her employer kept as a pet.

@Scautish

Yes, Turkey as a name did not exist until the 20th century but the land within modern day Turkey is where the Ottoman Empire was founded by Osman in 1299 (Ottomans are named after Osman). Turkey is their ancestral homeland.

Yes, they began empire building a few centuries before they added Syria to the Empire in 1516. But it is relevant because you seemed to imply the Ottomans had an ancestral right to Syria, when they were simply conquerors and colonisers of Syria.

Both France and Britain tried to hold on to these states (or maintaining control of them) for as long as they could. I don’t agree. French control of Syria was agreed in 1920 and independence agreed in 1936 (delayed by Nazi occupation of France until 1944). So it’s not possible that In the end both countries had to be forced to relinquish control of these colonised lands. And the really only did because after WW2 they were so broke because independence was agreed before WWII in 1936.

The impact of the land carve-up after WW1 is still felt today.…and we can’t really do that until we, as the aggressors, acknowledge our role and the damage it caused.

But the land carve up was along historic borders that pre-existed before the Ottomans took over. It was restitution, apart from the creation of Israel. But, let’s limit it to Syria please as you originally posted about Syria. You are now ranging far afield bringing the Suez Canal and Egypt plus oil fields in Iraq plus Israel/Palestine into things. There is much valid critIcism on how things were done there.

But Syria as part of the Ottoman Empire was what was originally under discussion. I’m not sure how you can portray us as “aggressors” causing “damage” in regards to taking over the Syrian region of the Ottoman Empire in response to the Ottoman genocide of fellow Christians? And how we established a safe zone for the Armenian, Assyrian and Kurdish refugees feeling Ottoman massacres? And then as soon as possible- 24hrs later- hand back control to the Syrians who’d lived for 400yrs under the oppression of the Ottoman Empire. We fought for and got them their freedom as well as preventing the completion of the Ottoman progroms of genocide against minority ethnic groups.

*24yrs later, not sure how that became 24hrs later.

Yes its because they're brown and Its far away look at difference in how we treat Ukrainians against the syrians or those in yemen

3 work related deaths doesn’t seem unusually unsafe to me? Out of 9 countries that have hosted the FIFA World Cup, Qatar has tied for 3rd safest with the USA.

@Discovereads Those are the official stats released by Qatar and are completely untrue.

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/23/revealed-migrant-worker-deaths-qatar-fifa-world-cup-2022

Totally totally agree. No one gives a shit

And let's not forget the female Fifa worker who was raped, and then sentenced to 100 lashes and 7 years in jail for "extra marital sex". I can't believe that anyone is willing to watch one single match of this competition.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.lbc.co.uk/news/world-cup-official-faces-100-lashes-and-7yrs-jail-after-rape/

(apologies if this has already been shared - I haven't RTFT)

Out of sight, out of mind. And the British despite denying it all the time are highly racist. And politicians/businesses are good at brushing things under the carpet.

No they’re not the official stats released by Qatar and completely untrue.
They’ve been independently validated.

The Guardian article you linked to is quite clear that the 6,500 figure is all deaths among all migrant workers in all jobs due to all causes in the entire country from 2010-2020 whether their deaths were work related or not or World Cup related or not. 94% of the workforce in Qatar are migrant workers, comprising a population of approximately 1.7m people. So a certain number of people in this working age group would die naturally every year. In the U.K. 300 out of every 500,000 working age people die every year ( www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33019838). If you apply this baseline to the Qatar migrant workers population, then you’d expect to see 10,200 deaths over ten years if these migrant workers were working in the U.K. instead of in Qatar.

The same article you linked states
There have been 37 deaths among workers directly linked to construction of World Cup stadiums, of which 34 are classified as “non-work related” by the event’s organising committee. Experts have questioned the use of the term because in some cases it has been used to describe deaths which have occurred on the job, including a number of workers who have collapsed and died on stadium construction sites.

Thus there were 3 deaths that were work related AND on a FIFA construction site.

This “questioning” is 100% normal as the same questioning happened regarding the deaths on the U.K. 2012 Olympic site being ruled not working related and the U.K. ending up with zero deaths on record.

“In the U.K. 300 out of every 500,000 working age people die every year (www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33019838)”

Ive just noticed my BBC link isn’t working. But you can find the data here as well
www.statista.com/statistics/1125118/death-rate-united-kingdom-uk-by-age/

This is my last response to you @Discovereads as it is now a complete thread derail but the statement below that you made regarding Syria is completely wrong and highly misleading.

You said: But the land carve up was along historic borders that pre-existed before the Ottomans took over
COMPLETELY UNTRUE

Syria in today’s context has completely different borders when compared with pre-Ottoman [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_(region) region of Syria]]

I have attached a map in attempt to demonstrate this. Where A is what the French wanted and B what the wanted. These split between A and B is almost exactly the split between Syria and Jordan/Iraq today.

And here is an excerpt from the Wikipedia page I have linked:

After World War I, The boundaries of the region were last defined in modern times by the proclamation of and subsequent definition by French and British mandatory agreement

With this huge error alongside the incredibly inaccurate figures you quoted for Syrian and Ukrainian refugee numbers, I do wonder what your agenda is - especially on a thread where the topic is racism.

Apologies it was FIFAs president who said it was 3 workers eufactcheck.eu/factcheck/uncheckable-only-three-people-died-in-the-construction-of-stadiums-for-the-fifa-world-cup-in-qatar/

Tim Noonan from the ITUC believes the comparison is misleading. The migrant workers in Qatar are not only young, they are fit. "Qatar requires them to be given a medical examination to screen them for pre-existing conditions, so this is comparing apples and pears," he says

I have to agree with the apples and pears comments in the article you linked.

I'm not accepting them.

I take no interest in football. Who is 'we'?

Totally agree. Same with Syrian War vs Ukraine war. We’re falling over ourselves to help the poor Ukrainians (which we should) but actively try to prevent Syrian refugees from even getting to our country.

My personal opinion is that the problem is men not skin colour.
People originally intended on hosting women and children fleeing from Ukraine.
I've read loads of online comments criticising Ukrainian men for arriving, questioning why they aren't back in Ukraine.

Whereas the middle Eastern refugees are predominantly men so there was less people willing to accommodate.

Though I see how human life as no value in certain countries and I've no idea how to make these countries value life and treat workers well.

Seeing the footage of illegal miners in South African being beaten in the street without trial or evidence - not taking from the poor women who were raped in the crime they're being accused of.

The world is horrible.

I think you have misunderstood me in regards to Syria. The land carve up I was referring to wasn’t the notional 1966 map you’re showing of plans for foreign control of regions internal to Syria that never actually materialised IRL.

I was referring to the whole of Syria as a separate entity was carved back out of the Ottoman Empire along the same historic borders it had had as far back as when it was a Roman province.

the incredibly inaccurate figures you quoted for Syrian and Ukrainian refugee numbers,

I posted incredibly inaccurate figures for the 6.6m Syrian refugees? I beg your pardon but I was off by 1.6m Syrian refugees due using an older source, than you, but your number of 13.4m Syrian refugees was off by 6.8m…more than doubling the number of actual Syrian refugees listed in the source you linked.

I do wonder what your agenda is - especially on a thread where the topic is racism.
Here I was thinking the topic was racism in terms of lack of outrage over the 3 migrant worker deaths in Qatar building the FIFA world cup stadium. And honestly I don’t think there should be outrage. 3 deaths is one of the safest projects to date for the FIFA cup. When you think it matches the 3 deaths when the USA did the FIFA World Cup, it is far below the 21 deaths when the Russians did it, and the 24 deaths when the Italians did it. No outrage then, but I don’t think for a sexing it is because it was white migrant workers dying…it’s because construction is hazardous work. And workers do die in this industry.

Is it though?
Males aged 25-29 have a death rate of 0.6 per 1,000 each year in the U.K.
So let’s assume all the Qatari workers are just as young and fit, even though we know of a few deaths reported have been of workers in their 40s where the death rate is 1.9 in a 1,000. But let’s pretend, they are all 25-29 young and fit workers anyway.

Qatar has a migrant working population of 1.7m.
So 1,700 x 0.6 = 1,020 deaths per year
The 6,500 number was measured from 2011-2020 inclusive so 10yrs.
6,500 / 10= 650 deaths per year

This is a complete non story. There are no excess deaths of migrant workers compared to deaths of workers in the UK. In fact it’s much lower than one would expect, perhaps migrant workers in Qatar are fitter than British workers?

Forgot to link the statistic page death rate by age chart again. I’d linked it earlier too.
www.statista.com/statistics/1125118/death-rate-united-kingdom-uk-by-age/

i give up. Too much stupidity.

The idea that France and UK attacked Ottomans because of the way they were treating Christians is also wrong.

Are you quite sure on that?

Just one last thing, did your books never mention the Triple Entente of 24 May 1915? Russia, France, and the United Kingdom—issued a declaration condemning the ongoing Armenian genocide carried out in the Ottoman Empire and threatening to hold the perpetrators accountable. This was the first use of the phrase "crimes against humanity" in international diplomacy

And it was the prelude to the subsequent military intervention in Syria. I think you need some military history books that cover the diplomacy which comes before these wars.

I still give up. Still to much stupidity.

money talks. fifa can talk the talk about no homophobia and racism but if somewhere racist exploitation if rife and homophobia is illegal bribes then what re they gonna do say no?