To think DD can get top grades in an 'average' comp. secondary?

[HotCaterpillar]

Dd has done well at primary, near top of class academically and is well behaved and conscientious.

I've moved area and she's due to start secondary in an averagely performing comp. in September. Aibu to think she can get top grades in that environment if she continues to apply herself to studying?

She was offered a place in a selective private school but I declined due to the fees, I could probably just about afford them but it felt very expensive when there is a free option. She's done well in state primary. I'm a single parent working FT, we have a good home life.

She's 12. I think you are possibly getting overly worried about something which could change significantly in 2-3 years.

I unfortunately don't have kids, but I do work in education. What does she want to do? Is it Uni - because there's contextualized admissions nowadays, which take schools/postcodes into account.
As an aside, my siblings and I went to a bog standard comprehensive. We all have at least one degree (mostly from Russell Group Unis), and work in professional jobs. It's about studying and applying oneself - as well as actually having the ability in the first place.

Good luck to your daughter, and you, for the future.

As already explained, she got the grades needed to get into the girls'grammar school and she wanted to go there. Why not? It was a great opportunity for her.

The courses on offer were also far better. The comp was offering a more restricted choice due to staffing shortages.

I did, but actually read largely ignored by teachers at school, RWA is fine let her get on with it, because too be fair they had their hands full with nightmare students, parents, social care, police etc.
I've done very well, but the advice I needed about career progression and planning wasn't there when I was young. I was the first in my family to go to uni etc and teachers just weren't used to students like me. It helped I was sporty and extroverted, so had friends. Comments like, "I can't believe you're so clever, you're well alright" were common in my first couple of years. Some of my set peers were terrorised for being 'geeks'. I also had teachers telling me I should choose my social circle differently (ie hang out with the people being bullied because that's where I belonged....). I had to be socially smart more than academically just to survive really.
We moved out of a grammar area just as I was about to go into secondary having been put in for my 11+ by a keen primary teacher, with no prep. I got in to the highly selective grammar but then we moved and my parents thought the same as you, she'll be ok wherever she goes, and I was. Would I have been stretched more, had more focus on academia at the grammar definitely, but learning to navigate an East London comp definitely gave me life skills!

See how she gets on and if you change your mind then move her in year 9

It will depend on how much you want to help her above what the school can offer.

The same range of subjects may not be available ie: my daughter who attended a grammar school could study single sciences and her cousin at a comprehensive couldn't. The comprehensive had a tendency to swap around awarding bodies to try and improve their results and this often had disastrous results because the teachers just weren't able to keep up. Additional maths wasn't available as a subject choice at the comprehensive.
A lot of these things may never affect your child as it depends on their subject choices etc.

Er, no.

Peers.

Call the fee paying school back. From a kid who wanted to thrive, please make it so.

OP my daughter went to our local comp and got 3 A* at a Level and is now studying law at new college Oxford. Her teachers at secondary school we dedicated to their pupils and really encouraged her from day one so from my own experience I would say yes, if there are some good teachers and your daughter is bright and motivated she will do very well.

My peers at my fee paying secondary school were bloody awful! Most did abysmally. Once I had the option to leave I went to a state 6th form college, thrived with a bunch on wonderful friends who all came from shock horror state schools!

I have a close friend who went to one of the worst state schools in the area (not even an average comp). As the school was an 11-16 school she moved to a private school for sixth form. She very nearly left after the first week because so many of the private school students thought she must be lying as she'd got better GCSE results than they had, and treated her absolutely abysmally. Not really a good advert for private schools.

I think so. My kids have just finished year 9 and 10. Eldest didn’t pass the grammar exam, younger one didn’t sit it. Both in top sets. My eldest has just sit English Lit and RE GCSEs as they do those subjects a year early. She’s predicted 6/7 in RE and a 7/8 in English Lit. We shall see!

Whilst lots of children get top grades every year in an average type Comp, as a proportion of students, it is obviously a far lower number than in a selective or private school.

This means your DD COULD get top grades in the average Comp, but is MORE likely to in the other schools. Whether she WILL cannot be foreseen.

My DC were pretty bright but not exceptional - think 125 type Midyis or Cat4 scores. They went to a selective private school and came out with a long string of top grades. The things I think that helped were the fact that there was stable teaching - people weren’t leaving mid-year and in almost all cases, they had the same teacher through their 2 year A Levels and 3 year GCSE courses. Probably more important was the friendship group. The vast majority were hard workers. I’d say all of the students had high aspirations, even if they weren’t the hardest workers and knuckled down hard at the end and worked very hard. My DC found their tribe of slightly nerdy and hardworking kids. There were heaps of them. It was cool to work hard, to do well, and when the schools talks about grades 8/9 and A/A* as the norm, and those around you are aiming for it, you do too.

People often say you get similar in state selective schools and can get it too in Comps in the top sets if they set in enough subjects. Kids do naturally veer towards those similar to themselves mostly anyway. But I think what can vary is whether there is a critical mass or bright kids who are highly motivated. My kids were swept along with their able and hardworking peers. They wanted to keep up, and success fed a taste for it.

Of course most Comps will have someone or a couple who get all 9s at GCSE. They might have between 10 and 20 getting all 8/9 grades. Will your DD be in the couple who get the top grades….maybe, but probably not statistically. In the selective orivate school, perhaps 25-35 will get all 9s and maybe 75 will get all 8/9 out if a smaller cohort than the Comp. Of course these kids have all passed exams to get in, but having done that, statistically they are more likely to get the top grades in those schools. If you like there is less ‘risk’ than being in the Comp and hoping you’ll be in the top 0.5%, than being in the top half of the independent.

Final thought, re the independent school, they are absolutely not all equal. How selective is the orivate you had a place at? How good are their results? Sometimes they aren’t much better than the Comp or sometimes worse. Unless a child has SEN or other needs which mean private is better, for an academic child and when funds in the family are tight, I’d only pay for a really top school.

Oh, and all the anecdotes of people who themselves gained fab results from a poor school, or whose kids or friends’ kids got top results from an average Comp are just that…anecdotes. They are true, but do t change the stark cold facts of the difference in grades achieved in different schools. Top grades are absolutely possible in average schools, but are quite simply far more likely in selective or private schools.

Of course most Comps will have someone or a couple who get all 9s at GCSE. They might have between 10 and 20 getting all 8/9 grades. Will your DD be in the couple who get the top grades….maybe, but probably not statistically. In the selective orivate school, perhaps 25-35 will get all 9s and maybe 75 will get all 8/9 out if a smaller cohort than the Comp.

You seem to be ignoring the student themselves in all this.
A student getting top grades is not purely statistics. Putting a child in a high achieving school does not in itself, mean that they will achieve highly. They actually have to do some work!
As GCSE results have recently come out, I thought I'd look at my DC's comp -which is "bog standard" on many indicators, and teaches mixed ability in every subject except maths.
The school reports that around 15% of Year 11 got 8 or more top grades at GCSE. Our local selective private school takes about the top 15% of the ability range. And a large proportion of these students have also got 8 or more top grades. So actually, if you are just looking at statistics, this seems to show that, if you live round here, the top 15% (ish) of the ability range are going to get top grades, regardless of school. The million dollar question is, of course, whether one's particular child might do better in one particular school as opposed to another.

The results at the local girls private school are no better than dds all girls state.

That said how can you compare the results of a school that is obliged to take everyone within a catchment area with a selective school? That’s just silly!

Dd and many of her peers just got strings of 8s and 9s from their state school, have nice studious normal friends and play sport regularly so frankly glad I saved the money.

My son and daughter did and both went on to get first class degrees ! They can do it if motivated . Their younger brother wouldn’t have done that well where ever he went he just wasn’t interested. He did well once he had the motivation on money in an apprenticeship

Honestly do the local comp and if you are worried she is underperforming by year 9 can her tutors for year 10/11 much cheaper than private school and she’ll be happier having local friends.

If she's highly motivated and reasonably intelligent then it's possible. I worked in education and the motivated pupils worked backwards - they would access mark schemes and examiners reports for all subjects and make their revision notes accordingly.

You are not making a lifetime commitment to this school, you can move her if it's not working out. Many many people do move children at all stages.

One other thing to recognise, is that although many more kids in selective schools or private might achieve a full run of 9 or 8/9 grades, there will be large numbers of bright kids in average Comps who get all grades 7-9 which open doors for them. The grades might not be quite so stellar, but will open the doors to RG unis and certainly into their A Levels of choice. In most cases, it really won’t matter if the grade outcomes are 10x9 grades or 2x9, 4x8 and 4x7.

Although you can generalise and the statistical facts about different outcomes from average Comps vs selective schools are clear on a macro level, you have to play it by ear based on the experience of your individual child in their individual school. Not all private schools deliver fantastic results by any means. Some kids in an average Comp will find a tribe of cover and motivated kids and push ahead and do fantastically, whilst others won’t find that tribe but be influenced by some who are less aspirational. You don’t know until your child is there and can see what’s happening with them. And as others say, you don’t have to remain in the same school all the way through. Independent schools see kids come and go into most year groups and if there’s space, will usually welcome a bright kid paying fees at pretty much any point. You don’t close the door to the option by trying the state option.

Aren’t top Unis having to fill more of their quota from comps these days?

Our local grammar is a very stressful, high pressure environment. They cream off the very bright kids and put them under a lot of pressure. Some thrive, some sink. Results look good on paper but at what cost to their mental health. Many have moved their children out to our very good local secondary. My son gets lots of confidence being in the top set here. He’d be in the bottom at the grammar. I’m not sure that would mean a better outcome for him.

My daughter has just got all 8s and 9s from a pretty poor comp. I cannot fault most of the teaching and I believe the pastoral care is great. However, because of where it is people just choose to send children to comps out of the area.
The comp most chose has a severe bullying problem and I am so pleased we stuck with the school we did.
In yr 6 SATs my daughter got full marks in both English and a couple of marks off in maths so she was highlighted as a 8/9 grade possibility. She didn’t want to take the grammar test, and I didn’t particularly want her to either.
I believe achieving the grades she got at her school will be looked upon favourably when applying for uni and even jobs. I work for a large professional services firm and it would definitely be viewed favourably as far as I know.

Not rtft but yes.
My dp works in an averagely performing comprehensive. Every year they have around 10 students who get 8 or more 8s and 9s (it the equivalent previously).
A few years ago one of those was a good friend of ours who is now reading medicine.
They got the exact same grades as our child who was at a selective (state) school.
The thing I would say is that I believe they worked harder and had to be more committed than our own child did. At our child's school it was more like 60 children who got 8 or more 8s.
My dp is quite open that the teaching is much better at our children's school because it's much easier to teach children who are all at the same level, who are mostly very keen and enthusiastic and where you can teach the more academic children much faster so get through the course content quicker and spend more time on revision etc.
On results day our child said to us that she recognised that our friend had a significantly greater achievement than she did and I think that is correct.

Peer group is very influential to teens. See how it goes. Consider putting her in private the last couple of years. What does she want to do? Grades alone shouldn't be used for self esteem.

My Dd got top sats result in English but scraped average in maths she also doesn’t find science easy. We got the best tutors we could find for maths and science she ended up with a7 and two eights (9s in all the others as she finds humanities easier) which blew us away. So am feeling quite pro state atm 😁.