To think DD can get top grades in an 'average' comp. secondary?

[HotCaterpillar]

Dd has done well at primary, near top of class academically and is well behaved and conscientious.

I've moved area and she's due to start secondary in an averagely performing comp. in September. Aibu to think she can get top grades in that environment if she continues to apply herself to studying?

She was offered a place in a selective private school but I declined due to the fees, I could probably just about afford them but it felt very expensive when there is a free option. She's done well in state primary. I'm a single parent working FT, we have a good home life.

I was probably your daughter, top of class at primary. Went to very average non fee paying / non exam entry secondary school just the average high school round the corner from my parents. Applied myself throughout high school, got straight As and A*s. Went on to get 3 As at college (again, a non fee paying normal catchment area sixth form college) and then onto university (Nottingham). I am now in a successful high earning job in London (just turned 30) where my counterpart is 4 older than me, but went to one of the best fee paying girl’s schools in the country and then went on to Cambridge. We both ended up in the same job but with very different routes there.

Our local school is on the verge of special measures. In my daughter's final year (2019/2020) pupils were offered places in Cambridge, St Andrews, Russell Group and one had a full scholarship to the USA.

Another of my daughter's was in a cohort where a quarter of the A level pupils went on to get 1st Class degrees across a wide spectrum of subjects because the pupils were taught to study, not to pass exams.

I'm a teacher who has taught in lots of different types of schools across the sectors.
Yes, of course bright pupils can get good grades in a state school. But it isn't always as easy depending on the school.

In private, even with class sizes creeping up teachers are contracted to put in extra hours of support in a way that they arent in state. Many still do in state, but some don't.

In private, yes there is violence and fights do happen but the perpetrators can be removed after just a couple of incidents: they can have zero tolerance policies. It is very difficult to remove pupils from state.

Even in private schools that don't select on ability (there are some) and have a full range of abilities including mild-moderate learning difficulties like was imagined for a comprehensive school, they are able to turn away pupils who they can't look after or educate (eg those with severe SEND who should really not be in mainstream education but are due to the shortage of SEND places). Comps can't cope with them either but have to. These pupils need more attention from the teacher, leaving less for the others. No one wins in this scenario but there is a severe shortage of SEND placements and funding.

Private schools are judged on their grades for individual children. If children aren't achieving, their parents complain and other parents don't send kids there. Some state schools will be graded on how many kids get Cs and above so will not be fussed about making sure little Jimmy gets an 8 rather than a 7.

Private schools mostly (although this is changing with the teacher retention crisis) have subject specialists so if your child is gifted at, say, Physics, their Physics teacher can support that. In state schools often pupils are not taught by subject specialists. This is changing though as the private sector is struggling with staff recruitment and retention too.

These things do make a difference. Bullying can happen anywhere in any school. I would say there are four factors to educational success (by which I mean achieving that pupil's best which might be a 9 or might be a 4!)

1. The pupil themselves - do they work hard, act on feedback, ask for extra help when they need it.

2. Peer environment; this can't be underestimated. If the ethos at a school amongst a friendship group is it isnt cool to work that will hold all pupils back.

3. Home support

4. School environment (see above,some of this is almost always better in private because they would close otherwise but there are also some great state schools too).

OP, you know your DD, you can do home support. The things you can't control are peer influence and school environment.

Of course she can, if she knows what she wants to do and works hard she can get the grades she wants.

My 2 went to a regular high school in our area and came out with the grades they wanted and worked towards.

Yes of course she can. I went to an average comp and did v well (Warwick uni, training contract with City firm). I had a small group of bright, motivated and conscientious friends. We also expected to go to uni and get graduate jobs. There were plenty of bright kids at my school who did less well in their exams. I would say that school / education was just not a priority for them (and possibly not their parents). That’s not to say they are not doing well now though.

Of course she can! I went to a local state comp, straight A*s and As at GCSEs, then went to the local further education college for A Levels and on to Oxford. Plenty of people I know did really well from comps.
You can support her by engaging with her on what she’s doing, helping her with her homework and if she needs it thinking about tutoring.

My son is achieving very well in his outstanding primary and I’m a little concerned about the catchment secondary but I plan on being very involved and well use tutors if necessary.

My GSs are at a private secondary school - why? .... because there it is not seen as uncool to apply yourself to subjects and to throw yourself into all the brilliant extra-curricular stuff. The local comp has a "learning is uncool" ethos among the pupils. At an age when friends are so important and the need is to be with the in-crowd, their attitudes matter a lot. I feel sorry for the teachers at the comp - they truly are doing their best and are dedicated to helping the pupils get on, but it is like rolling a boulder uphill.

Of course she can, if she knows what she wants to do and works hard she can get the grades she wants. - they are too young to be expected to know what they want to do.

I think the points about peer support are very well made. Both my DDs were part of a small, close-knit group of girls who made it their business to work hard and support each other to achieve. They had the strength to stay away from the 'populars' and get on with theire work.

Of course with the right support and motivation possibly with some supplementation.. My daughter got mainly 9s in gcse and AAA in hard subjects at a level. It really will come down to her motivation though.

My two bright DC went to a very average rural comp.
They got mostly A at GCSE, all A at A level and both got 1sts at top unis in maths and science.
So yes, it can be done.
You need to put some effort in yourself. Always be engaged with school work and extend it outside the curriculum.

Make sure they don't fall in with a bad crowd.
Use the money to help by all means, tutor if they have a weak subject.

Yes she can. Both mine did, and the comp wasn't even average! In fact it's just gone into Special Measures and had the Head removed. They both achieved all A stars in the old GCSEs, and the same in A levels. And weren't alone. But I would say that some who entered the school at the same level but without the same MC family background didn't reach their potential.
i'd also say prepare yourself for sone good old fashioned 'swot' bullying. It can take real strength of character to keep pushing on when others are trying to bring you down. That said bullying happens in all kinds of schools and takes on all kinds of hues.
So keep you eye on peer group, and everything in fact!
And if Oxbridge or Med school turns out to be an ambition please seek extra advice. My DC's school was useless. No extra help in the entrance exams or for interview. Compare and contrast with the local private school who devoted whole Weds afternoons to the endeavour in 6th form.
Eyes wide open!!

Star failure there. My dc got A stars at gcse and a level. DC1 actually got 5 A stars at A level.

My relative is an Oxbridge academic and went to a state school but I wouldn't say that it was an average one. They are proof that top grades don't have to mean private school though.

And if Oxbridge or Med school turns out to be an ambition please seek extra advice
This is true. Not only was there no preparation or help available DS1 was actually discouraged from applying to Oxbridge as not for the likes of us. I had to counter that.

Absolutely.

Ultimately your attitude and expectations at home have a far bigger impact on your daughter than any school.

Both mine went to a very mixed school, looked down on by the favoured catchment. They both thrived.

In fact I would say that smart kids do really well at average schools they stand out and teachers will really encourage them.

I did - went to an average comprehensive, had an awful home life and no tutoring or anything, just worked hard and of course, in retrospect must have had good teachers.

My dd did.
we did consider going for scholarship but dd chose which school she wanted to go too and chose a local comp with average ofstead reports.

She got all 8’s and 9’s in GCSE and is now awaiting A level results, she has a offer for a top uni (which she has turned down in favour of another uni). She has always been able to decide for herself where to go, where she feels most comfortable and has always achieved high.

My daughter goes to a comp and has just been predicted 8's and 9's for next year

They have added an extra lesson 2 days a week in the timetable for them from
next year and I think she will get plenty of support.

She is also however quite studious and organised and will look up past papers etc herself.

Her friendship group are also the same and I believe they are generally all looking at high grades.

A lot depends n the teachers she gets. Not just how well they teach but also their classroom management skills. Even top sets in 'aversge' state secondary schools can have disruptive pupils in them who stop the learning of a very one else
Also the culture of homework as she gets older. Is it set and marked regularly. Are their consequences for not handing it in or is this just passed over as too many kids aren't bothering? Even kids who have been very hard working in primary can fall off the learning wagon if others around then aren't bothering or if success isn't 'cool' with her peers.

No point getting into Oxford or Cambridge if you don’t have the social and cultural capital

Really? Over 60% of Oxbridge students are from state schools. This isn’t the 1920s.

She definitely can. I got As/Bs at GCSE, all As at A levels and went to Oxbridge. A lot of that was definitely my attitude though... used free periods for school work instead of driving lessons. Mind you, I didn't end up taking my driving test until I was late 30s so you can't have it all! 🤣🙈

Name changed for obvious reasons. My DD attends a super selective indie in London. She’s had 3 English teachers changed in her GCSE course. In one actual GCSE exam subject this year, the department wrongly decided to advise the kids what was going to be ‘low tariff’ questions and therefore less likely to come up on the paper as worth less than 5% overall. They were wrong. Cue the entire year having a meltdown as 20% of the paper was on a ‘low tariff’ topic and many of them wanted to study the subject at a level for which they need a top grade. The head is out of touch and writes letters to parents leaving everyone wondering what on earth she’s on about, the SLT leader in charge of education thinks they are the cleverest person on god’s earth and will not accept that they’ve got some matters very wrong. I’ve still had to employ tutors one for maths and two of the sciences on top of the fees.

That said, during lockdown the difference between my DD’s access to lessons versus the kids next door or were not at an indie was vastly different. Had all the kids had the same access I’m not sure that their results would be all that different but there is unlikely to be another pandemic 🤞.

So, in short, not the holy grail. If I had my time again, I’d probably not bother with the £125k I’ve spent but would’ve supplemented with tutors and extra curricular instead and paid for uni fees instead.

I got excellent grades at a pretty crap comp, but I had a miserable time there and I certainly wasn't stretched by the majority of my teachers. In fact, I distinctly remember going to speak to the head of French about how to maximise my chance of getting an A star at GCSE: she scoffed and said the only person who'd managed it in the last few years was her daughter. Equally, in my top set Maths class, half the set were entered for the Intermediate paper (where a B was the top grade available) rather than the Higher. It wasn't an environment where learning was encouraged, and it definitely wasn't cool to be clever (although I did have a couple of excellent and inspirational teachers who made my time there just about bearable).

If it's a school where there's a significant cohort of able and motivated pupils - leading to top sets where all or the majority of pupils are aiming for grade 8/9 - then I think a bright child has a very good chance of getting top grades, as well as having a positive educational experience. But where there are few pupils in that position, even a motivated child will have to show unusual determination and resilience to do well, and to rise above their peers.