Just privatise the NHS

[user1237865]

Totally prepared to be told IABU but I've just got to the point where I think the NHS is so far gone it should be privatised.

Totally outing so I've Name changed. In NI we have 2 private hospitals but they don't do emergency's, they don't do ante natal care. Really they only provide you with an appointment with a consultant who will then decide in treatment which in most cases will happen on the NHS. If it's something like cataracts they'll do it but the private hospitals here don't do anything major. Perhaps the rest of the UK is the same. I'm not sure.

Today DSis was sent to A&E by the GP. DM and her have now been waiting 7 hours to be seen. While waiting another man collapsed and died in front of them. I think this is beyond ridiculous how can they let this happen?! If people were seen in a decent time frame this would be less likely.

FIL has terminal cancer again nowhere to treat him when he gets recurring sepsis so most times he sits on a chair (around ever 2 months) for 36 hours getting an IV in A&E before he's finally gets moved to a ward.

I paid for private ante natal care each time I was pregnant. It did give me appointments every 3 weeks and scans with a consultant but when it came to giving birth it was a time when the consultant was working a shift for the NHS thus using their resources and beds. Yes the care was probably therefore cheaper than had I been paying for my stay in hospital too but it isn't an option here.

The whole things a complete joke. Those willing to pay/ have insurance are still stuck blocking the NHS which in my opinion should be there for those that can't afford their own treatment or can't get insurance through their job.

Surely if a lot of it was private, pay would be better, meaning more people choosing it as a career (and not leaving) meaning people actually get proper care! Though so much of what I think could be wrong as I don't understand it all fully.

You’re ignoring the fact that we are more unhealthy at a younger age - obesity is a huge problem for example. That’s not about older people living for longer.

The choices made by this government play a huge part in our unequal and unhealthy population. Of course the NHS cannot cope.

More should be done to make it easier for us to stay healthy and therefore less reliant on medication and healthcare. But that’s not the interest in this government who only listen to private healthcare providers keen to profit from our ills.

I certainly think there needs to be reform.

The NHS could remain for acute conditions and diagnosis - so A&E and cancer/other life limiting illness treatment and obviously pregnancy/maternity.

But insurance should pay for the rest including chronic care. As an example, I think we'd get better mental health services if we had insurance for them. Same goes for things like physio.

We also need to look at primary care. Do we need so many GPs? Could we have more triage nurses and paramedics? Could we do primary care more cheaply and efficiently? Other countries charge for initial appointments - maybe we should too. Do we even need the current GP system - other countries don't employ one.

Of course, all the money in the world can't help if you don't have the qualified staff. And whatever remains of the NHS needs to rid itself of the notion that it is doing people a favour and offering a "free" service. It is not. And it also needs to stop the cover-ups and learn something from the aviation industry.

The choices made by this government play a huge part in our unequal and unhealthy population. Of course the NHS cannot cope

this is also true. As an example, we need more investment in cycling/active travel for environmental reasons, but it would also help healthcare. Less air pollution causing lung and other disease and a slimmer population that doesn't get ill as often. And maybe less dementia too, I am sure air pollution has a role to play.

I wonder if Rishi or Liz are reading this

The system seems to work pretty well for eyes. Maybe that needs to be replicated across the body! I know there are long waits for cataract operations etc but that seems to have improved recently with special clinics to get them done (eg in Devon) and my husband had an eye procedure last year with virtually no wait at all.

I guess people are going to come on now and say eyes are a nightmare too. But it does seem like some parts of the NHS are working well, and are doing things right. So surely that should be copied.

Its not possible to take politics out of it, both parties have very different ideas of what the NHS should be.

On funding, R4 reported this morning that the NHS was, between 2010 and 2017 was funded at 0.9%, this was against a historic average of almost 4% year on year.

I'd have thought that this will have a huge impact on how the NHS performs against countries that fund more consistently.

However, i also think that people do have to take responsibility for their own health a little more, pushed by Govt, which can increase duties on tobacco, alcohol, fats and sugars.

I ve a close relative with circulation issues, to fix, this will take a complex operation, she will not stop smoking, despite being told this is the root cause of her problem.. so the op may well fail, leading to amputation and expensive rehab, not to mention wrecking her life!

All seems a bit of a waste.

You do NOT want a two or three tier health system.

You honestly don't.

We have one in Ireland and the government is desperately trying to bring in health care for all at the point of delivery. It's such an uphill battle.

If you get to your GP you don't have to pay at that point of delivery.
You don't have to pay for prescriptions at point of delivery
You don't have to pay for hospital stays at point of delivery.

For all of the negative press that the NHS gets, it really is a beacon of how health services could be run.

Sure there are lots and lots of areas for improvement. I remember watching a show on the BBC where Gerry Robinson tried to improve the services offered in one Health Care region and there was so much red tape I think even he struggled. This was back in 2007 - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can_Gerry_Robinson_Fix_the_NHS%3F

For the love of God don't privatise the NHS.

Has privatisation helped on the rail system? or any other system that wasn't previously privatised??

I echo exactly what @CactusBlossom has said. Very eloquently too!

@LookItsMeAgain the government has been talking about renationalising the rail service, that's how bad its got. That's the Tory government wanting to renationalise!

Exactly. Covid was a classic (is) example.

The government chooses not to invest in ventilation therefore it keeps spreading. People get ill, 20% end up with long covid!!! NHS falls over.

Absolutely don't privatise the NHS.

People will start paying for beds in hospital, £8 per night

Then your family are lucky. I'm meant to have appointments every 6 months due to what I have. It's rarely every 6 months.

All people or just those not on benefits but without the ability to pay for private ?

Another way to push the middle class out of existence

Anyone identified how, of itself, privatising the NHS and increasing transaction costs will increase funding? Or any credible political trajectory to a lovely Western European social model of delivery?

People want others to pay for their utopia. As long as it’s others it’s fine by them. I wish people wouldn’t talk about the USA system. The European system is much better. What is the issue with exploring day the French/German system?

Lots of people can afford to co pay. They just don’t want to.

Because there's no political trajectory to a Western European delivery model, it is on the table to accrete support to change but there is only one changed delivery model for which there is a realistic political trajectory. That is the same delivery model currently spending £10m + lobbying and which will offers NEDS and investable shareholdings. And privatisation, of itself, will increase transaction costs and reduce the benefits of monopsony without, of itself, increasing funding.

Once again, those systems are pretty much just like the NHS i.e. tax payer funded... yes there is an insurance element but fundamentally they are paid for via the tax system & they don't charge AHP's a fortune to train.

The difference being they have been funded at high levels for many years.

And the UK's taxpayers have not paid over the years? I would have to disagree. The money hasn't always been generous, and it certainly hasn't been well-spent, but nearly half current government spending is going into the health service. While that happens, with state pensions soaking up the rest, there's very little to spend on education and transport and infrastructure, which might go some way to explaining why our fundamental public services are so poor. When I say tax payers, I am referring to the middle classes earning on PAYE, not millionaires paying their accountants to transfer their tax domiciles to more benign territories. There are so few of them proportionate to the whole population that they are basically irrelevant, plus they are hyper-mobile, and will move overseas if the situation changes. That's why you pay an accountant.

To a degree, tax policy has to leave the super-rich out of the game. They have the wherewithal to cheat any system, and will do so, unless pitched at the right level. Most of us have no choice but to follow the rules and pay our dues. If the ultra-rich don't like the regime, or the legal framework, they will buy another house somewhere the rules work better for them. But chasing them for taxes is a hiding to nowhere. It's odious, but it won't change. Imposing super-taxation just means chasing them out. And there will always be another place to hide,

I disagree. If we foster a society that is less permissive of the super rich this will cease to be true.

Certainly won't happen overnight but your theory is defeatist. It only happens now because people accept it happening.

It might take a long time to create such a sea change in attitude and it might be difficult, but that's no reason not to start.

We might not be able to make changes that directly benefit us here and now, but we can leave the world a fairer place for those who come after.

All change starts somewhere.

Privatisation has the effect of making things more expensive for the consumer, decreasing standards and worsening pay and conditions for staff. While providing huge profits for people who are already rich. This has uniformly been the case in every other field from royal mail to electricity. Private businesses have more costs so cost more. Any savings come from paying staff less. Privatisation works when consumers have genuine choice but not otherwise.

Any savings come from paying staff less.

But many consultants are paid far more in the private sector. This may be partly due to the need to entice them away from doing purely NHS work.

However, there's a finite pool of doctors so they have some bargaining power. I believe that doctors in Australia, for example, are paid more generously than in the U.K. hence some choosing to emigrate.

I live in a country with a 2 tier health system and statutory health insurance.
It is ridiculous. Because of my salary I have no statutory health care and have to pay 1000 euros a month (so 12000 a year) for probably 2 or 3 GP appointments on average (it's painful handing that money over let me tell you!). And if I were to end up in hospital I would still have to pay an excess of around 200 euros a night for my stay - no matter what.

It's appalling. And it does not improve your treatment. Everyone is out to make a profit. Doctors will not take responsibility for any decision making and they always make follow-on appointments for 'specialists' when it is unnecessary.

It honestly grinds my gears and I daily wish the country had an NHS.
For god's sake do not give up on it!