As a parent, would you be happy with this? And teachers?

[ThrallsWife]

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So some schools in South London are now encouraged to not exclude any students "unless they pose risk to another child". In my nearly 2 decades of teaching , I have had my family threatened, racist remarks made against me, chairs thrown at me, as well as books and various other bits.

Students have had to suffer through lessons dominated by the moods of one or two children, made to sit through countless lessons where learning was impossible because the same regular students would disrupt. Sometimes, not a single student was being threatened, but a whole class had to be evacuated to protect them from the rages of others.

Do we really hold the rights of the few above the rights of the many?

"Teachers will be encouraged to try to understand the reason for bad behaviour by using a "trauma-informed" response and are being told not to take misbehaviour at "face value"."

That is a weak response by any school I've ever worked in. Sometimes the answer is just bad parenting, not trauma. And those who have had severe trauma respond much better to talking to a professional with mental health training, which many teachers don't have enough of - nor the time to invest that would be necessary.

It would stop me from ever working in any of those schools, but I fear that this is the road we will all be forced down sooner or later...

I agree with you. Persistent disruptive behaviour is draining and has a long term impact on the perpetrator AND the class and staff. It's relentless and exhausting.

Sometimes, fixed term exclusions are more about giving the rest of the students and the teaching staff chance to regroup and actually teach, as they are a consequence for the child excluded.

So basically you think children with disabilities such as ASD or children with terrible home lives should be excluded because of the "choices" they make? I would have thought that a teacher with 2 decades of experience should know better. You're the one who is in loco parentis, have you looked at the behaviour that you model in your classroom that contributes to the disruption?

I wouldn’t work in such a school and I wouldn’t send my child to one either.

I'm a teacher, I do think some schools are very punitive and a trauma informed approach s better. However, how are schools supposed to support if there're not enough resources or staff? Early intervention will always help reduce exclusions but it's unfair to put that expectation on schools and teachers without additional resources to implement a better approach.

Same, I don't think children with those issues should be in a classroom affecting the experience and education of every other single child. You wouldn't accept a violent adult in the workplace so why should children have to accept this.

Respectfully, it’s hard not to feel annoyed sometimes. My DD was terrified of going to school because of 2 boys specifically. Sexual behaviour and physical violence. Now to a degree I can try to be level about those behaviours because I know SEND has major impacts BUT when it’s used an excuse and DD is told she needs to get on with it and try to ignore it. The parents of the children simply say it’s the schools problem or that my child needs to stop telling tales and the school tell me SEND is involved therefore their hands and tied because there’s no engagement from the parents, what do we do then? DD is not safe in school.

I work in education, don't teach anymore but have previously. I agree. Of course, at first, efforts should be made to ascertain if there is an underlying cause for the behaviour, however some pupils will just be disruptive, plain and simple.
I don't think many teachers would immediately assume bad behaviour was just for the sake of it, but the strategy you've posted about sounds awful, to be honest. It will just result in disruption for the majority of pupils who have to try to learn around this behaviour.

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very strange take! Some students are dangerous to have in a regular classroom. Just look at the video of a student beating up another student then a teacher that went viral last week!

Sometimes exclusions are needed, never wanted but needed. Taking that away can lead to dangerous students not being supported and people getting hurt.

It also impacts on the education of everyone else in the room. 1 disruptive student can have a very large negative effect. There isn’t always SEN or trauma, sometimes kids also need to learn their actions have consequences.

I agree. It is almost impossible to get a student excluded now. Instead it is all about trying to find the root cause of the problem for their bad behaviour, and understanding the difficult home life of these students - which I know is important but teachers,support staff and the mental health team don't have the time of resources to do this for every child unfortunately. And when it is disrupting the learning every single day of the other 30 kids in the class and causing repeated abuse towards teachers I think something has to be done.

It's really difficult.

We often talk about the fact that if children were coming into school and describing the behaviour that they are exposed to at school, as happening at home it would be a SS referral.

A child at our school who has particularly challenging behaviour is also a LAC, so can't be excluded anyway. There is is no help. It's such a sad state of affairs.

I would not work in such a school unless they also had the staff and resources to support those children outside the class. Other kids should not have their lessons disturbed because little Johnny is standing on the table or whatever. The problem is that schools do not have the resources needed to support these kids. It is a cheap way of avoiding paying for specialist support.

Understanding a child's needs and trauma will not help when said child refuses to work and disturbs learning of self and others. We have children wandering in and out, climbing over fences, throwing chairs, screaming and kicking or hitting TAs and staff. Children with these needs are not well served in mainstream schools nor do they learn much.

Just a few ideas here for you....
-Incorporate proper, adequate and qualified SEN learning into all teacher training.
-FUND schools, including mainstream with adequate, proper, qualified SEND provision.
-Cease in the practice of teachers unqualified in the business of mental health, social work or parenting of making sweeping statements about a family they have likely only met in the confines of what often appears to parents as a crisis meeting.
-Provide SEN funding to facilitate consistent proper adult supervision matched to the needs clearly outlined in specialist (yes qualified ) reports, observations and recommendations.
-Stop the practice of so many SLT's , MAT'S, Mainstream settings from illegally excluding, off-rolling and intimidating SEN children and their families.
-Create provisions which include and cater towards those children currently falling under the "ghost child" umbrella. (Someting between a mainstream and a DSP/PRU/AP.
-Cease Senco's,schools, SEN Officers into wrongly and inexpertly "labelling" children as "SEMH" when they remain on the pathway for formal, medically qualified assessment. This practice is a cack-handed way of obaining short-term provision but is hugely detrimental to the child who often needs entirely different effective methods and strategies.
-Make schools accountable for failings and fraudulent use of funds.
-Make LA'S accountable for their monitoring of schools.

And finally just maybe, consider the rights of these children who though may be posing yourself and other colleagues challenges before your own. You have all benefited from the education that got you as far as teaching, perhaps consider the value of these children receiving adequate, tailored to their needs provision before not only writing them off academically, but contributing to the ill effects of exclusion and limiting the very choices that your own education has afforded you.

*I am not saying it is easy. I am not inferring your job is hideously challenging. But you are placing and directing your anger in the wrong directions.

Consider for instance the current (and doomed to be flawed following the cabinet changes) SEND consultation on the White and Green Papers. Have you taken the time to respond? Contacted your MP? Your union? Or have you perhaps thought of contacting the DFE?

Further consider the proposed (Dickensian in its' contents) Schools Bill? Parents just like the ones you already label as bad, who FYI have already before you get the pleasure of judging them meeting them have already endured trauma levels you cannot possibly comprehend. Because you, unlike them have not only been able to choose. career, you have been afforded the privilege of pursuing it. The very system you are so angry at has failed them so monumentally that the choices you retain have been ripped from them, their families, their relationships, other siblings and yet they "cope" daily. Because schools like yours simply don't. Yet when these failings are clearly identified, their "battle" really commences, as though the law is on their side, their LA often isn't..... Add to this the flavour of battle for paediatrics (it's hideous right now FYI, CAMHS (the chocolate teapot that even suicidal teens don't reach the criteria for), ASD/ADHD/PDA assessments which in some parts of the UK are currently running a 3 year waiting list, sleepless nights and the relentless emails, forms, meetings and appointments. We perhaps qualify for DLA for our children, if lucky receive £260 a month Carers- this all goes on the children and household bills as that's where the system leaves us. To obtain this absolute fortune means requiring education professionals to fill out forms outlining how challenging our children are, but we wait weeks, whilst you battle the same system from a different side of the fence to us. Yet we are grateful.

Then the audacity, the barefaced unqualified, judgemental opinions professionals like yourself freely share regarding our parenting, though you have never given us more than ten minutes of your time or even stepped into our homes. You are in receipt of 100's of emails, clearly bearing my name, but insist each time on calling me "Mum". Your tone (as in your post ) speaks loudly as "Bad Mum"..... Yet we are grateful you bothered to call at all. Because let's face it responding to our emails or calls is never a priority when it is easier to not explore a childs' needs and try to match provision towards them, it's always easier to label us "bad parents".

THIS is what is called a weak response from supposed "professionals", who in any other profession would be obliged to meet timelines and follow the law. If you genuinely consider the trauma who may have had within school is anywhere close to that of any SEN parent, I would seriously recommend you take some time to actually sit down and listen to some of them. You would be amazed I am sure.

You could consider that investing the time you have here would be identical to that of drafting an email to your MP or similar or setting up a support group within your school or LA.... Perhaps outline the racist, threatening and violent behaviours you have encountered and please o inform them whilst you're at it that many parents you deem "bad" have suffered the same relentless trauma, again from the same broken system we are all forced to share and work within.

I’m not a teacher, a school governor. I understood this was potentially becoming a recommendation by the prior children’s commissioner ie. not excluding any primary school children.

Take ‘poor parenting’ and teacher aptitude to deal with behaviour out of it as that detracts from the discussion which should be child centric and is often much more complex. However, I agree it’s unreasonable some children remain in class and potentially school, for themselves and other pupils, as well as the teacher. To be clear I am not talking about SEN students.

I’ve seen the consequences of a ‘challenging’ demographic on the attainment of the whole year. I’ve also seen how often children in these situations are vulnerable and need multi/agency support well beyond the teacher. I fear it’s being pushed on schools as there is even less funding and resources at agencies that should provide that support ie. social work, ed psych etc. So the message is we can’t support/pay for those interventions so suck it up.

As an aside, I am aghast as the aggression towards teachers by the average pupil and student. Heads should be well within their rights to implement a 3 strikes and you’re out policy for ANY level of swearing or other aggression. The level of disrespect to teachers is disgusting.

For anyone feeling very vocal about this and I know there are many in MN, there is a National shortage of governors so I suggest you volunteer your time to better understand the issues and attempt to make a difference.

I don’t think anyone is saying these children don’t have needs or rights.
But when I’ve been attacked by a child I have the right to NOT have to teach that child for a few days while I work through my trauma.
Other children have the right to enjoy their education. If your daughter had been sexually assaulted by another child, you would not want her to have to face the child the next day because they have unmet needs.
It’s the funding and support that just isn’t there. It just isn’t. Until it is what do we do?

This. I can’t wait to start at one of these schools and learn how to make that system work. I want to equip myself with more of the skills to de escalate behaviour and manage my classroom effectively. In the nicest way, if you don’t like it or don’t want to learn the soft skills and approaches for that environment, OP, instead of denigrating this approach, work elsewhere. There are currently hundreds of vacancies in London, your perfect school is out there!

What about the other children with disabilities and terrible home lives, who can't learn anything because of the behaviour of one individual.

Parents just like the ones you already label as bad, who FYI have already before you get the pleasure of judging them meeting them have already endured trauma levels you cannot possibly comprehend. Because you, unlike them have not only been able to choose. career, you have been afforded the privilege of pursuing it. The very system you are so angry at has failed them so monumentally that the choices you retain have been ripped from them, their families, their relationships, other siblings and yet they "cope" daily.

For one, you are assuming that none of us teachers and other school professionals have had traumatic backgrounds. Well, stuff that assumption where the sun don't shine, because I can guarentee you that you're talking out of that very behind.

I have had a childhood of being rejected by both my parents, bullyind, physical and sexual abuse throughout my childhood. I excelled despite my childhood, not because of it.

For another, you are - also wrongly - assuming that I judge all parents. I have excellent relationships with a lot of my SEND students, but, believe it or not in your bubble, bad parenting exists. I teach students who are used to going to mum or dad or grandparents who will give them whatever they want just to stay quiet and I - and many of my students - do suffer the consequences of this daily.

You also assume that we don't know the struggle of SEND parents - having fought for over 6 years so far to get one of my children the SEND help they desperately need, I know exactly where a lot of parents stand.

I am NOT talking about that.

I am talking about children with DV backgrounds being further traumatised in schools by having to witness children punch desks, walls and throw tables at best and let their aggressions out at peopple at worst.

I am talking about students with virtually no boundaries at home doing what they want in the classroom without consequences.

Yes, I am also talking about my own right to be free from abuse in my workplace, which does not even seem to be taken into consideration, as if I am not a human being.

I have been trained in MH and in SEND. I apply strategies daily. But I also see many children only for about 2 hours a week - I simply do not have the time to give them the support they need while supporting 30 others at the same time. There is a limit to my job.

Please direct your anger at the system, not me, who has concerns of how this affects others who have to suffer through this ill-thought out system.

I think some schools, perhaps due to lack of knowledge or lack of access to support, dont realise just how much they are contributing to the challenging behaviour and how much of it could be prevented with the correct support. They end up doing off the peg OT exercises, speech and language and strategies from 'tool kits' but without the thorough assessments needed to pick the right bits of the tool kit. They also arent applied as consistently and extensively as needed.

I also think they have said exclusion is ok when another child is at risk so many of your examples would still be excludeable.

Fully prepared for withering comments but… 20 years experience, 8 as SMT in a variety of state secondaries

How many more hats do teachers need to wear? I am a social worker ( safeguarding, ensuring children have clean uniform, are fed, regularly report concerns etc), I am supposed to have a magic wand to stop bullying, issues that occur outside school, at home, under parental jurisdiction but are dragged into school and becomes a ‘school’ problem, I am supposed to be able to speed up diagnosis of all types of emotional, behavioural distress in teenagers, whilst ensuring that students get exactly what they need while waiting 8 months for a diagnosis that doesn’t contain many answers even when it does arrive. The list is exhaustive and at the bottom of the pile, the role of teacher is forgotten.

Teachers mainly train to teach because they have an active interest in helping, supporting and teaching young people but increasingly they are in charge of every aspect of a child’s development and issues. Schools need to draw the line, teachers are leaving due to abuse ( from both kids and parents) and the idea that schools can contain, love, nurture and deal with every single behaviour, issue, special need, special parental request is unrealistic.

Many students are being robbed of their education, due to schools/ teachers being expected to deal with a vast spectrum of issues that schools have no business dealing with, and teaching suffers. Unless people are happy to pay a lot more tax to have psychologists, drug/ addiction services, mental health teams, specialists dealing in trauma, teachers cannot deal with this, it’s not what we trained for. Yes, some kids with SEND will and do miss out, but teachers cannot, should not have to deal with all issues that kids bring to school with them. I’ve seen teachers being ‘helpful’ trying to deal with issues that are not qualified to deal with and have made situations worse due to lack of knowledge/experience, they care but it’s often not enough. The answer is not to simply pack a few teachers off on a three day in service training, the complexities of child development, mental health issues are a degree subject in themselves.

Schools need to draw a line to protect staff and the majority of students, but it will not happen due to laissez faire policy and because it’s cheaper to ask schools to contain their ‘problems’. Teachers need to teach and have the appropriate specialists in schools to deal with the behaviour and extra needs.

Before all the withering comments and shouts of how special each specific child’s needs are and what schools are not doing for them, how much tax is everyone willing to pay to put the professionals around each child that will support the child and the teacher? Until there are specialists in schools a child’s education with be very dependent upon who else sits in their classroom with them, the schools will not be removing the children any time soon ( including for drug issues). The solution is not cheap, is not quick and also encompasses how we as a society are parenting our children.

We also need to address the amount of weed that is smoked by youngsters and then parents insisting the children have SEND

@MsRead I completley agree the support services around a school are totally inadequete and a teacher cant be an ot, salt, ep, clinical psychologist.

But I think the long term cost of not providing those services is greater as the children will end up requiring support for life that could have been avoided and increasingly expensive interventions.

I think you’re coming at this from the wrong end of the problem. Pour money and resources into special schools. Make them fantastic happy places with enviable outcomes. Then make enough of them to accommodate ALL the children with additional needs giving them a great education. Those who can’t access the special schools can be educated for much less money/resources and achieve at least what their peers with Sen do if they work hard and apply themselves.

The thing is, what do exclusions achieve? If you are writing off lots of behavioural problems as “bad parenting” then what part of a school expulsions actually address that or supports the child?

Every child is entitled to an education, but I am very sympathetic to the issue the OP describes and as a teacher, I’ve seen it in action time and time again. 2 students dominate some of their lessons and if the teacher isn’t amazing at classroom management, they can destroy multiple classes. It is really unfair on the rest of the students, particularly when it persists.

Every child has the right to an education and that includes those who don't have physical and or mental health issues , or a bad home life. A solution needs to be found but allowing disruptive pupils to ruin other children's education is obviously not working and neither is it fair.

My ds is 15, just going into year 11. He has ASD and is a sweet, kind boy. He has to daily endure the behaviour of the other children in his class disrupting his lessons to the point that he cannot learn.
They are loud, rude to the teachers, walk in and out of the lessons.
They swear at him, shove him around, steal his lunchbox, rip up his work, spray him with cleaning spray, spray deodorant in his face. All this is considered ‘low level’. He has been in the toilet with other students throwing scissors over the top of the cubicle, trying to unlock the door and taking photos - interestingly the photos got a much bigger reaction than the scissors. The class have not managed to cover the curriculum this year, and he is way behind where he should be.
Why do his needs come so far behind those of the other students?