As a parent, would you be happy with this? And teachers?

[ThrallsWife]

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So some schools in South London are now encouraged to not exclude any students "unless they pose risk to another child". In my nearly 2 decades of teaching , I have had my family threatened, racist remarks made against me, chairs thrown at me, as well as books and various other bits.

Students have had to suffer through lessons dominated by the moods of one or two children, made to sit through countless lessons where learning was impossible because the same regular students would disrupt. Sometimes, not a single student was being threatened, but a whole class had to be evacuated to protect them from the rages of others.

Do we really hold the rights of the few above the rights of the many?

"Teachers will be encouraged to try to understand the reason for bad behaviour by using a "trauma-informed" response and are being told not to take misbehaviour at "face value"."

That is a weak response by any school I've ever worked in. Sometimes the answer is just bad parenting, not trauma. And those who have had severe trauma respond much better to talking to a professional with mental health training, which many teachers don't have enough of - nor the time to invest that would be necessary.

It would stop me from ever working in any of those schools, but I fear that this is the road we will all be forced down sooner or later...

@ThrallsWife
Wow defensive much? I literally stated at the end of my post it is the system not the parents you ought to be angry with?

"Perhaps outline the racist, threatening and violent behaviours you have encountered and please o inform them whilst you're at it that many parents you deem "bad" have suffered the same relentless trauma, again from the same broken system we are all forced to share and work within."

For one, you are assuming that none of us teachers and other school professionals have had traumatic backgrounds. Well, stuff that assumption where the sun don't shine, because I can guarentee you that you're talking out of that very behind.

How utterly charming and reassuring for SEN parents everywhere to see attitudes like this. Nobody-literally nobody stated or inferred teachers had no personal experience of trauma, you would think though if any within the profession did, the level of empathy and desire to improve things might be a tad higher?

I have had a childhood of being rejected by both my parents, bullyind, physical and sexual abuse throughout my childhood. I excelled despite my childhood, not because of it.

Very sorry to read this, but genuinely delighted you made a way through for yourself. I am assuming tht your ability to access education aided your route to success hugely?

For another, you are - also wrongly - assuming that I judge all parents. I have excellent relationships with a lot of my SEND students, but, believe it or not in your bubble, bad parenting exists. I teach students who are used to going to mum or dad or grandparents who will give them whatever they want just to stay quiet and I - and many of my students - do suffer the consequences of this daily.

Your wording in your initial OP "sometimes the answer is just bad parenting, not trauma". How about the woeful lack of provision, the waiting times for assessments? The lack of knowledge of SEN within schools? Had you not considered this? Do you have any understanding how exhausting and offensive your statements are towards parents from a teaching professional they ought to be able to seek guidance and reassurance from? if you suffer consequences (I am assuming behaviour-led?) daily, what patterns are you recording? What triggers exist? What is your SENCO team doing to support? What assessments have occurred? What measures have yourself and your supporting staff got?

You also assume that we don't know the struggle of SEND parents - having fought for over 6 years so far to get one of my children the SEND help they desperately need, I know exactly where a lot of parents stand.

The assumption is based on years as both a parent and somebody supporting other families in the same mission, to obtain the best possible outcomes for their children. These might be mainstream , they may not of course, it's a case by case basis. If you know where they stand (`and presumably then how hard it is) why are you placing them all in the same bracket? Have you actually met any parents who you consider to be doing their best, researching possibilities and emailing on the hour support? Or is there nobody in the world as perfect as you?

I am NOT talking about that. This was loud and clear yes!

I am talking about children with DV backgrounds being further traumatised in schools by having to witness children punch desks, walls and throw tables at best and let their aggressions out at peopple at worst.
And these children never replicate behaviours they are seeing at home? I have observed many cases where children of such households are repeating behaviours and most commonly some pretty offeensive language and actions from being placed in unsuitable situations, which it seems rarely meet the bar for a better placement or home life. Their conduct often has impacted upon all their classmates, SEN included-they all count equally surely to God?

I am talking about students with virtually no boundaries at home doing what they want in the classroom without consequences.
So what advice have you issued their families? Who have you signposted them towards?

, I am also talking about my own right to be free from abuse in my workplace, which does not even seem to be taken into consideration, as if I am not a human being.
Quite- imagine being a terrified 6 year old held in an intervention room or school lobby for hours because their "right" did not exist and they were denied to feel like a human being or even included? The fact is you both have your rights-the system currently fails both of you-what can be done about it? Shitty posts on MN demonisning these children and their parents? Or actively seeking some positive changes within your chosen field?

I have been trained in MH and in SEND. I apply strategies daily. But I also see many children only for about 2 hours a week - I simply do not have the time to give them the support they need while supporting 30 others at the same time. There is a limit to my job.
You are then a true rarity in my experience, this past week alone I have chaired or attended meetings whilst the salary in the room would mislead you into thinking that some understanding and expertise may be present . In only two of these have there been any clear indications that anybody had any level of understanding, never mind positive suggestions. That is not to say I blame teachers at all, my point perhaps worked better some years ago is just simply inadequate in meeting the range of issues which typically come with a class of 30+ children these days. There is of course a limit to your job I was not suggesting otherwise, in fact I wrote the following with an sterisk!!!

"*I am not saying it is easy. I am not inferring your job is hideously challenging. But you are placing and directing your anger in the wrong directions."

Please direct your anger at the system, not me, who has concerns of how this affects others who have to suffer through this ill-thought out system.

I do. Daily. I also wrote this for your attention, but you failed to refer to this in your response? , these proposed changes are going to have a huge impact upon teachers, I would really encourage you to respond to both these and urge your colleagues to do the same.

"*I am not saying it is easy. I am not inferring your job is hideously challenging. But you are placing and directing your anger in the wrong directions.

Consider for instance the current (and doomed to be flawed following the cabinet changes) SEND consultation on the White and Green Papers. Have you taken the time to respond? Contacted your MP? Your union? Or have you perhaps thought of contacting the DFE?"

I literally told you in my own post to direct your anger at the system and you are telling me to do the same. Perhaps then you might just realise that parents and professionals are actually / should be operating on the same team? It rarely feels this way and your own OP spoke loudly as to why... that said I hope you come to a better method of viewing and dealing with children facing exclusions and of their parents, it's a lonely and often miserable life, with little hope.

Too much is being asked of teachers surely it’s as simple as that. It must be hard enough teaching a class of 30 your subject without being expected to “manage unmet needs” or follow whatever jargon model is currently in trend.

I was pissed off in lockdown as the head at dds primary switched to delivering food packages to needy families and “supporting” them which is all very lovely but why on earth is a school doing that? Isn’t that for social workers to so? Teachers are there to educate all the children not essentially bring up a minority of kids / deal with their family issues / complex needs. It’s just not possible or fair. It’s a government issue surely. No wonder teacher recruitment is down and so many are leaving.

@DoubleShotEspresso I think you are completely misreading the situation. The cast majority of teachers I work with are highly supportive of SEN students and frequently have them at the forefront of their mind. I'm sorry that this has clearly not been your experience. We've had violent SEN children in my class and our first question is what has triggered them. We make huge efforts to notice if children are starting to spiral. The thought of leaving a child in an intervention room seems barbaric to me.

On the other hand there are students in our class who are completely detailing the education of the other students. Poor parenting and lack of parental engagement is a massive issue. Many have no boundaries at home and are encouraged to distrust the school. We have chairs thrown, swearing, fights, constant running out of class, explosive anger, threats to other students. There is a mother who has ended up in hospital several times due to being attacked by her son (no SEN). These students drag other students into it - often SEN or students with very sad backgrounds. The other 20 odd children don't get enough teaching time and a lot struggle to focus with the explosive characters we have. Everyone loses.

MsTSwift managing an unmet need is okay ish in a small class for a limited time while appropriate proper provision is put in place. Doing so for 2 years in a GCSE class of 31 is not okay. I quit the state sector because of one child. We (school, home, wider society) failed that child (he was sacked from one apprenticeship and one job within 6 months for the same crap he pulled in school) and simultaneously failed all the others (who didn't get the attention or grades they deserved).

I'm all for campaigning for better services for children and young people. I'm not okay with removing boundaries and consequences for their actions in lieu of proper support.

Oof.

Perhaps outline the racist, threatening and violent behaviours you have encountered
Literally every behaviour report I make is exactly that.

and please o inform them whilst you're at it that many parents you deem "bad" have suffered the same relentless trauma
And again, that is part of our training. We are very aware how these things repeat, but to break the cycle, there is only so much a school can do. The parents I deem "bad" are those that fail to deal with behaviour in a consistent way. I actually have children telling me that, at home, if they ask often enough, their parents/ carers will eventually give in. So guess what they do at school?

Example today: "I need the toilet". "You have literally just come in from lunch, you know the rules, you need to wait." "Yeah, but I need the toilet". Repeat twice. Kid then gets out of their seat, walks over to the LSA, asks whether they can go to the toilet. Gets the same message, gets told to sit down, has the same repeated conversation. Sits down, waits 2min while I am in the middle of an explanation, shouts out "can I go to the toilet". Same conversation. Walks out. Has to be recorded immediately. Takes 7min out of a lesson with 30 kids in it. 7min, only 2 of which I have per child if every child wanted to say something that lesson, therefore, immediately impacts 2.5 others - IF I hadn't also needed time to actually, you know, teach.

Nobody-literally nobody stated or inferred teachers had no personal experience of trauma, you would think though if any within the profession did, the level of empathy and desire to improve things might be a tad higher?
You did. In this sentence: Parents just like the ones you already label as bad, who FYI have already before you get the pleasure of judging them meeting them have already endured trauma levels you cannot possibly comprehend. Because you, unlike them have not only been able to choose. career, you have been afforded the privilege of pursuing it. You are actually saying I cannot possibly comprehend the trauma these parents may have been through. Newsflash, I can. So can many of my colleagues, who have also had traumatic backgrounds.

I am assuming tht your ability to access education aided your route to success hugely?
I accessed education by fully immersing myself in it and not making everyone else's lives a living nightmare. School was my safe place, to an extent, even despite bullying, because my life at home was so much worse. I appreciated my teachers for being there, just teaching, because the praise I got from them due to my efforts were all the praise I was going to get that day. I had anger, too, but I never let it out on others, despite witnessing almost daily lashings-out by one of my parents.

Your wording in your initial OP "sometimes the answer is just bad parenting, not trauma".
And I stand by that. Why is it so hard to comprehend that truly bad parenting exists?

How about the woeful lack of provision, the waiting times for assessments? The lack of knowledge of SEN within schools? Had you not considered this?
There is little lack of knowledge of SEND in schools - perhaps in ECTs or trainees, but everyone else will have had extensive training, every year. The assessments are the crux, but as I have already pointed out, my child's waiting time is now 6 years - mainly because they are high-achieving and well-behaved, so go under in the sea of poor behaviour in many classes.

if you suffer consequences (I am assuming behaviour-led?) daily, what patterns are you recording? What triggers exist?

All considered and recorded, thank you. I know my job quite well these days.

What is your SENCO team doing to support?
As much as they can, which is very little when they only have the means to fund ONE TA for 10 that need it in one class. And yes, that figure is accurate.

What assessments have occurred? What measures have yourself and your supporting staff got?
We are restricted by time and money. If I see roughly 1500 students over two weeks for up to about 3 hours, how much do you actually think I can do as a single person?

why are you placing them all in the same bracket? Have you actually met any parents who you consider to be doing their best, researching possibilities and emailing on the hour support?
I am not and have made that clear repeatedly. Students are individuals and I treat them as such, but I have also dealt with far too many who are spoilt or use MLD as an excuse to do nothing. As in, nothing. I have the same routine every lesson for the start, and yet, every lesson, some fail to follow the same standard - i.e., stand behind your chair, face forward, write the date and title (or even start your work - even with simple things such as copying a definition, which is in front of them, into their books, despite 1:1 reminders).

Why is it so hard for you to understand that not every child tries? That not every child thinks rules apply to them?

I have some fantastic SEND students. I support every one of them as much as I can with my limited time. I print 5 colours of my presentation, cut out sheets for them, read with them, do 1:1 support.

I have parents on the phone telling me they have no idea what they could do, but who still let them play on their consoles until 3am, let them off school for a mild headache, demand a phone back the minute it has been confiscated. I can work with parents who try, but beyond that, other agencies need to be involved and in the meantime, others should NOT suffer the consequences.

And these children never replicate behaviours they are seeing at home? I have observed many cases where children of such households are repeating behaviours and most commonly some pretty offeensive language and actions from being placed in unsuitable situations, which it seems rarely meet the bar for a better placement or home life. Their conduct often has impacted upon all their classmates, SEN included-they all count equally surely to God?
Are we making the same point here? If all count equally, then why are some of the worst offenders allowed to make learning hell for the rest?

Of course they replicate behaviours from home. But I don't blame the potty mouth for being one, if a "shit!" is followed by an "oh, sorry, Miss". I blame those that have been told that calling their neighbour a "fat cunt" is not acceptable and they tell me that "well, she is a fat cunt and you can shut up and don't even talk to me" (happened this week). Because there is not being able to help something and there is plain rudeness.

Also, I ask again: what adults does this raise? How are we teaching Joey to function in society if he thinks that he can walk away from a police officer telling them "I don't care, just shut your face"? Or that "I only kicked him because he took my ruler" is an acceptable excuse? That gives rise to "I only punched her because she didn't have dinner ready".

Quite- imagine being a terrified 6 year old held in an intervention room or school lobby for hours because their "right" did not exist and they were denied to feel like a human being or even included?
Given the current system, for this to happen, that 6-year-old would have had to have caused massive disruption or harm. No one talks about sending a kid home for the wrong colour shoe lace - which is indeed an issue I have with the English school system.

I literally told you in my own post to direct your anger at the system and you are telling me to do the same. Perhaps then you might just realise that parents and professionals are actually / should be operating on the same team?
And yet you attacked my post as if a) I did not have an idea what I was talking about, b) assumed I threw all SEND kids in the same basket as those who regularly affect the vast majority of their peers and then c) called my professionalism into question without ever asking what was behind all that.

you are completely misreading the situation. The cast majority of teachers I work with are highly supportive of SEN students and frequently have them at the forefront of their mind. I'm sorry that this has clearly not been your experience. We've had violent SEN children in my class and our first question is what has triggered them. We make huge efforts to notice if children are starting to spiral. The thought of leaving a child in an intervention room seems barbaric to me.

On the other hand there are students in our class who are completely detailing the education of the other students. Poor parenting and lack of parental engagement is a massive issue. Many have no boundaries at home and are encouraged to distrust the school. We have chairs thrown, swearing, fights, constant running out of class, explosive anger, threats to other students. There is a mother who has ended up in hospital several times due to being attacked by her son (no SEN). These students drag other students into it - often SEN or students with very sad backgrounds. The other 20 odd children don't get enough teaching time and a lot struggle to focus with the explosive characters we have. Everyone loses.

I'm afraid I disagree with your first paragraph, based yes on my own experience with our own child (now thankfully very positively resolved !) but from the perspective of families I represent and support. I certainly don't doubt the majority of teachers enter a room with the very best of intentions and don't wish ill towards children, but the common theme I'm afraid is that many just throw their hands up in despair. The real fact to remember here is this is largely due to the inability of so many schools willingness/expertise and funding to support children sufficiently in the classroom.
I am glad to read of your horror at the use of intervention rooms, but sadly this is an increasingly popular method for schools to adopt but serves nobody, least if all the child in question, who yea by the point of being there is already facing unimaginable trauma.

This in no way means classroom boundaries need or should be removed, all children regardless of SEN can and should be made o understand these and the importance of them. This is possible mostly. Where it simply isn't, alternatives are needed obviously. But just what and where are these alternatives?
If these even exist, they come with huge waits for places and often negative behaviours eliminate the child from the required criteria... which leaves them where?

Just what should we do with SEN or "from very sad backgrounds" children do you think?
Who do you think should teach them?
This isn't a single issue of the challenges teachers face daily, it's numerous elements which impact entire school communities, their staff, the good parents and those you've already decided are "poor" in their parenting.
Do we just ignore the rights and needs of any child because teachers think that their parents are doing a poor job? Or do we find people and places that can maybe figure out why???

All that's available to any parent currently is what the law permits- where alternatives are yet to be produced, it's sadly mainstream schools who not only interpret needs but fit them within a classroom. What other choices do you think exist or suggest would be preferable?

As the government has just cut school budgets again, I can't see this getting any better and some posters would be far better off having a go at the government than teachers and support staff.

DoubleShotEspresso, I think we're talking at crossed purposes. Children with SEN are almost always manageable in a classroom, and very often a delight to teach.

The children who are a problem are those who have been properly assessed and have no SEN, or (in some cases) parents won't allow us to get them assessed because "there's nothing wrong with him you stupid bitch". And social services don't care that the teenager isn't getting enough sleep (gaming til 3am), or proper food (monster drinks for breakfast).

Teachers and other students should not have to just accept disruption, aggression and (in many cases) violence. Schools are not good at social work or treating mental health problems, and it shouldn't be their responsibility.

Ultimately there are people who feel that violent children with additional needs should not be given priority over the other children (some of whom also have additional needs) and those who think that they should.

The former will have non-violent children (or have been that child) and the latter will have the violent children. It will always be thus until education is funded properly. Until then, the latter will get their way in my experience.

It’s entirely familiar to me from the debates on those with additional needs that make noise and those with additional needs that can’t bear it. The former always take priority over the latter because the parents of the former insist that their child has additional needs and the quiet kids can’t possibly have. They turn it into a discrimination issue when it’s actually competing sets of ND needs. When confronted with this, they go quiet.

Same here. Nobody here who is fighting with the OP has dealt with the fact that there are kids in the classroom whose trauma and ND are being exacerbated by their violent peers. They just handwave that by acting like any child that isn’t actively kicking off is NT.

Anyway OP YANBU and you sound like you’re doing everything you can within the parameters of your actual job, which isn’t parenting, being a social worker, or running the school for the benefit of one child only.

@DoubleShotEspresso Do you believe that the needs of the other students in the classroom should come second to the needs of the children who are struggling to behave appropriately? Do you really believe that the other children should put up with being verbally and physically abused because ‘everyone deserves an education’?
You say that
I am glad to read of your horror at the use of intervention rooms, but sadly this is an increasingly popular method for schools to adopt but serves nobody,
Well it serves my son, who is trying his hardest to pass his GCSEs despite his own SEN, by removing the children who disrupt the lessons from his classroom.
I agree that these students need specialist support and interventions, I agree that there needs to be more places in good quality alternative provisions, I agree that they need different approaches to education. But none of this exists, and putting these kids into mainstream classes and then shouting at the teachers for not being able to manage them is not the answer.
You said that the common theme I'm afraid is that many just throw their hands up in despair, as though that is a fault in the teacher, not that they are a professional who is being driven to despair by what they are being expected to cope with.
You are not a teacher and you have unrealistic expectations of what can be achieved within a classroom.