As a parent, would you be happy with this? And teachers?

[ThrallsWife]

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So some schools in South London are now encouraged to not exclude any students "unless they pose risk to another child". In my nearly 2 decades of teaching , I have had my family threatened, racist remarks made against me, chairs thrown at me, as well as books and various other bits.

Students have had to suffer through lessons dominated by the moods of one or two children, made to sit through countless lessons where learning was impossible because the same regular students would disrupt. Sometimes, not a single student was being threatened, but a whole class had to be evacuated to protect them from the rages of others.

Do we really hold the rights of the few above the rights of the many?

"Teachers will be encouraged to try to understand the reason for bad behaviour by using a "trauma-informed" response and are being told not to take misbehaviour at "face value"."

That is a weak response by any school I've ever worked in. Sometimes the answer is just bad parenting, not trauma. And those who have had severe trauma respond much better to talking to a professional with mental health training, which many teachers don't have enough of - nor the time to invest that would be necessary.

It would stop me from ever working in any of those schools, but I fear that this is the road we will all be forced down sooner or later...

But it’s society’s problem. It’s all of our problem, as this discussion shows. As long as we have an attitude of ‘children who cannot behave’ (really scary black and white attitude upthread for a teacher to have) should not be in our school, we have a society wide problem. I agree that the children who are not disruptive should not suffer, but these are children! They don’t behave this way because they are ok. Poor parenting is traumatic. Behaviour is communication, not sure why that is being sneered at.

Just because some kids manage to deal with it be achieving like the OP (I am sorry to hear of your experiences) or by being quiet, some literally can’t and need a tonne of support to be able to learn. Camhs, Ed psych and social work are all grossly underfunded. This is the problem. We need to care for our vulnerable, not tell them to get to fuck.

The current approach is like asking a pilot to perform CPR in an emergency and if they manage to do it once, expecting it to be their role thereafter to manage all in-flight medical conditions or it’ll be their fault if someone dies of a diabetic coma or brain haemorrhage.

No, these vulnerable children need to be helped by appropriate professionals in an appropriate setting.
ie not by teachers in a school

• No, these vulnerable children need to be helped by appropriate professionals in an appropriate setting. ie not by teachers in a school*

At the moment these settings don't exist or are severely oversubscribed. The waiting lists can be years long. So, what happens in the meantime?

What happens is that education is severely disrupted for a lot of other children, including many children who also have extra needs.

If no one complains, nothing will change for those children.

Plenty of people complain,most of all school staff. No one wants to listen. Or at least not enough to vote the right way,campaign,ask questions from their MP's,lobby etc.

I’m a teacher who has been trained in trauma informed response. I think it’s a shame you aren’t committed to it, as it has the ability to really positively impact staff and children. It does need to be really embraced rather than lip service paid, which means the right resources in place.
As a society it’s absolutely without doubt the right approach, whether in mainstream school or in nurture or specialist settings. Righting teens and children off costs us an absolute fortune in crime, mental health and prison costs. It’s madness on an economic and human/moral level.

Writing not righting 😀

Poor poor teachers. They do an amazing job in terribly difficult circumstances and just seem to get the blame for poor behaviour rather getting thanked for all that they do.
Thank you to all teachers. I don’t know how you do it - you are amazing.

No one says to write them off.

Would it be writing off a child with severe asthma to say that all asthma attacks should be managed by teachers at school because hospitals are overstretched? And that the other children should work by themselves while the struggling asthmatic child is being managed outside in the hall every day by the teacher?

Actually it WOULD be writing them off - because the answer would be to treat asthma where it’s SUPPOSED to be treated - by a healthcare professional in a healthcare setting. Not by teachers in a school.

I know a 6 year old with autism and significant learning difficulties who was permanently excluded from school and was out of school for a year ( at home) before a school place was found for them. How can anyone think exclusion was the way to meet that disabled child's needs

But try changing that to:
I know a child with a severe heart condition who kept collapsing at school until the teachers felt it was unsafe to have him there. He was out of school for a year before his heart condition was finally appropriately managed by a cardiologist.

Sockwomble

presumably if that child was excluded it’s because they were causing significant disruption/harm to the rest of the children at their school. I don’t believe that the education of 29 children should suffer for the benefit of one child. Exclusion absolutely is the answer. However the being out of school for a year was not acceptable. Children permanently excluded in my area have alternative provision to go too with smaller classes and professionals who are earned in managing children with high needs. These sort of facilities must be funded and provided with the possibility of a return to mainstream depending on the students progress.

Isn’t it weird how kids behaved much better before all the diagnoses and people spouting things like ‘all behaviour is communication’

I don’t actually disagree with the last statement. With a lot of the kids I teach the behaviour is communicating ‘I’m a rude little shit who had never been told ‘no’ in my life’

Yep. This is how it goes. Teachers are powerless.

"But try changing that to:
I know a child with a severe heart condition who kept collapsing at school until the teachers felt it was unsafe to have him there. He was out of school for a year before his heart condition was finally appropriately managed by a cardiologist."

Also add in that during that year he got no medical support and his parents were left to try to sort out and manage his treatment by themselves and he only finally got medical support because his parents took the NHS to court and the law forced them to provide it.

Dancingwithhyenas

so does the trauma informed response idea only apply where children’s behaviour is trauma related? If so I can see how people I work with use it, for example keeping distance from a boy who has been assaulted previously when disciplining him and never raising the voice.
as you are aware there isn’t much training given to teachers on this.

"These sort of facilities must be funded and provided with the possibility of a return to mainstream depending on the students progress."

This child needed specialist provision for their autism but there were no special school places. It would have helped if the mainstream school had not spent a year saying that they wouldn't apply for an ehcp because they hadn't got enough evidence ( but your child can only attend part time because they need too much support).

Its hard my own ds year group has been a nightmare from reception my son has been hit punched kicked nipped push over by the same 5 kids in year 3 he finally snapped and has been hitting back yet he is the one who gets into trouble each time and I am the only parent contacted my ds struggles with verbal communication and has speech therapy ect so when upset ppl can't understand him so I have to write statements when he is calm at home to inform his teachers, he was attached by all 5 of these boys at the same time yet only he got into trouble and lost breaks they are all year 4 so 8 and 9 year old yet because of there home life or adhd or asd they get away with it every time, yes more help is needed for those with problems but they should also be punished for there behaviour

I empathise with you but at the end of the day exclusions don't change behaviour- the same way prison does not rehabilitate for the vast majority. I work in education and I feel great allegiance and sympathy for the stress teachers have, the funding crisis and curriculum- it all needs to change. I moved from SE England to NI and still work in education (in an overseeing role) and the issues here are much less (in terms of behaviour- and results are better). Ime there were much more difficult societal issues plus poverty at play in England which relates to Southwark (I worked in the next borough).

The schools' proposal is a weak-kneed response to a very real situation, and pushes all the responsibility back on the teacher. No change there.

Everyone gets short-changed.

A perspective from Victoria is one where privacy laws are so stringent, teachers know very little about students' backgrounds bar allergies/diet/asthma/medical/diagnosed issues in the detailed way UK teachers do. I've worked in both so I know. Just to add we don't know ethnicity, religion or languages spoke at home unless the family has chosen to give such information.

I should add that when I've spoken with students about the UK's more informed system of student information to teachers they say it's a much better idea, and I agree. It enables a far more nuanced approach to student care than an email saying "X is doing it tough right now".

In Victoria teachers deal with the behaviour, and the bottom line is, is this preventing teaching and learning from happening? We had excellent back-up from SLT if the shit hit the fan, and HOYs dealt with the more complex issues.
Background might be a reason, but never an excuse.

I know which one I prefer.

I empathise with you but at the end of the day exclusions don't change behaviour- the same way prison does not rehabilitate for the vast majority

But it does the give the rest a break. Others need to be considered too.

For those who display such behaviours, there should be a safe place for them to receive help/education, whether because of trauma or parenting issue. This would need lots more teachers trained & qualified in psychology & trauma at a great cost. It’s so important to do though.

What utter bollcks!
The easy leap, lets make it all about a particular group then we can pass the buck onto the teacher, sod the rest of the school, a very large majority, who are unable to learn. The pupils who are constantly disrupting the school, bullying the other pupils, abusing staff are often just plain and simply little shits with no other problems/excuses, yet they are backed up by outsiders who don't have to deal with them in a full class situation and know nothing about teaching.