To think education wasn’t actually any better in the past?

[educationnow]

I keep saying this, but no one seems to believe me so it might well just be my perceptions!

I started school in 1985, so I did start in the glory days (apparently) when there was no national curriculum.

Teaching was TERRIBLE! We learned nothing about SPAG, Maths was ‘work through a textbook’, teachers were sarcastic and cutting, bullying was rife. I’m sure there were many decent ones, but safeguarding wasn’t a thing and some of the things the teachers said and did in primary school were awful.

I started secondary in 1992, and bullying was still a huge issue, as was behaviour. We had SATs in Year 9 and a lot of our GCSEs had a heavy coursework weighting, so there was a lot of cheating.

I then started teaching myself in 2003. Behaviour was dire and I joined the TES forums where teachers kept commenting how much better behaviour had been ten/twenty years ago. My subject had coursework - cheating went on.

Then controlled assessments came in in 2010/11 (I think!) endless stress getting them in and up to standard and marking the things.

Now … very content heavy curriculum. Behaviour still an issue. Endless systems relating to technology - show my homework, Frog, ClassCharts. I wish we just used one.

I don’t think there’s ever been a golden age. I think every age has had problems, some unique to that time but some like poor behaviour has just always been an issue.

I’ve never actually heard the view that education was better in the past. I don’t think this is a commonly held view.

Really? I can’t move for claims that teaching was better ten/twenty years ago.

I dont think it was better. More that there were harsher consequences for bad behaviour and less time taken up with what would have been deemed as parenting not teaching.

Important qualities like resilience, self motivation, the ability to debate and think critically were instilled.

There were definitely aspects which were a more desirable outcome that were either taught or a side effect of the circumstances there

I'm.talking as a student not a teacher though

We've only actually been trying to educate every child for 200 years and the curriculum change in that time has been huge. In the scale of human evolution, I don't think that it long enough for us to be able to claim we know a 'right', or even good, way to deliver mass education.

What were those harsher consequences though @Whatwouldscullydo ? I’m not being contentious, genuinely asking.

I went to high school in the 1970s. Bulling was rife and any attempt to report it would only make it a thousand times worse. We had one kid sent to borstal for 6 months for serious extortion, on his release he was allowed back into school where he resumed his reign of terror on the same kid.

Teachers were an odd mix, many didn't seem to care and spent every lunch time in the pub, council estate kids could do no right where as the posh kids could do no wrong. A few teachers had injuries from the war and very little was expected of them.

One kid stabbed another in a race hate incident, 2 weeks suspended as his parents were well in with the school.

Kids were just permitted to drift, there was no emphasis on success unless it was football or rugby.

Thing is, you need a degree now for jobs you could get with O levels in the 1970s.

Are we really any better off?

I think standards and expectations in both parenting and teaching have fallen in recent years.

I was what you’d describe as an older mum, and even in the younger of my cohort of parents the acceptable standards of conduct are really quite shocking to my eyes. Even threads on here about eg table manners, literacy (should of etc) etiquette around invitations etc make me wince.

Schools are having to teach and parent a lot of children which leaves little time for actual academia. A lot of both parents and teachers seem to have just given up, which is a shame to see.

Speaking as a parent of 2 school age children , and trying to tie in what happens with them over what happened with me and what my parents must have dealt with, I think one huge difference that has caused issues with what happens today is the lack of ability for children to suffer the natural consequences of their decisions/behaviour/disorganisation.

For example if you forgot to pack lunch you went hungry.

Didn't have a coat for the rain you got wet and sat in.class all.day in soggy clothes.

Forgot pe kit in primary u did it in underwear and high school u just had to do it in your clothes .

At no point, despite far more parents being local than today and it be far more common to have a Parent at home, were you bailed out by the school calling your parents to bring anything in.

As a result you got your shot together. A skill thats much more difficult to teach at home now because you are very conscious that should they mention something at school it will be on a " file" some where. And the school simply calls u in to deliver lunch/coats/bags etc

You'd get yelled at..or the dust cloud from the board rubbers. Or board rubbers chucked at you. The fear of standing the corridor was enough to make u behave.

You were yelled at and humiliated in ways that don't happen today.

The 80s were hardly the glory days. Schools in the 60s and 70s taught a national curriculum, had standards, and the teachers could string a grammatically correct, correctly punctuated sentence.
Then they 'everyone is a winner' 'don't tell my little chardonnay/tyson off' brigade came along and it's ....

There has been a big shift in the narrative around student success. It used to be the case that if a student didn't succeed the student would be accountable and parents expected to address it. It's now wholly teachers and schools who are accountable. In reality it should be a combination however, that nuance is more challenging to address.

Student behaviour, emboldened by some parents support (it's never my little Johnny! He's an angel) makes behaviour management challenging and massively disrupts learning of all pupils.

I am beyond thrilled to no longer be a teacher :)

At primary maybe @Whatwouldscullydo and I suppose there is some argument for letting older primary kids bear our natural consequences.

But letting six and seven year olds have no lunch?

I was in school in the 80s & it was definitely not 'the glory days'. Teacher-to-pupil bullying and abuse was rife. Can you imagine now being allowed to throw (and hit) your wooden board rubber at a child's head for the child not getting an answer right? And SPAG was definitely a thing. I think schooling was better in the 50s & 60s when discipline was better. Some of my classes in the 80s were riotous as the teachers had no control.

Education definitely was better in the past. Just look how many people can't even spell etc

I.E. discusting, he's for his, Chester draws, the list is huge.

I was at primary school in the 70s and high school in early 80s. My education was pretty terrible, looking back it was outdated even for then! I was taught in imperial measurements ffs! We had actually gone metric by then!
Yes bullying was horrific and most of the the teachers were bullies / child abusers too.
I was a total bookworm and probably just above average intelligence, but failed every single O Level. At the time I just assumed it was because I was thick and a loser. I realise now it was just poor teaching, and being thoroughly miserable at school.

I guess there was just more defined responsibilities of parents and of the kids.

It just wasn't seen as the schools job to feed the kids. We had 2 kids on.fsm..not 2 poor kids. My folks struggled as did most people but no one took the free food. It just wasn't done. Same as their parents and grandparents etc. But then akso kids also weren't laden down with book bags that fit nothing,.expected to carry everything separately and having no hands free to carry lunch if they did remember it. It was easier to remember your stuff because you could actually pack it in a proper bag. And you'd realise something was missing when it didn't weigh much.

Obviously its great attitudes have changed and people take the help now instead of struggling needlessly. But that does now mean that to a degree we are stuck in the catch 22 of the more schools take on the.less parents do and the.less parents do the more the school has to take over with.

Nope haven't heard anyone say it was better in the past.

@CourtneeLuv but what are you basing that on?

Levels of illiteracy have fallen, not risen.

I thought you were listing ways that things had improved, but no, you think that little kids should spend their days cold, wet, hungry and miserable.

Elements of education are better now, STEM and how competent children are in these areas are now compared to years ago are night and day.

However, nowadays the behaviour and respect from children is far worse than it was years ago.

@BellaCiao1 i think that’s a commonly held view. It’s hard to say, but I do wonder if sometimes people assume this because their experience of school was mostly top sets.

In my first year teaching, it wasn’t uncommon for kids to just get up and walk out of your lesson. They refused to take their coats off. They openly chewed gum. In my first half term I was cornered and verbally abused by a year 11 when I was on break duty. Loads of fights, kids smoked openly.

Some of that was because I was new to the school and new to the profession. But still, the behaviour was shocking. I have yet to have taught anywhere as bad as that (and I’ve never taught anywhere particularly middle class!)

I am amazed by what my Year 2 child is doing. Primary education seems to involve a lot more actual education than I recall from my primary days (late 80s). Schools are a lot more caring, children's feelings are actually considered, learning is achieved through encouragement and a nurturing environment not the fear of being beaten (my fathers era) or ridiculed and/or totally ignored (my era). There are expectations for children, and the bright ones are given next steps, not just left to read a book under the desk with the teacher saying they didn't have anything to teach them (happened to me). Maybe I went to a really shit primary and my DC happen to go to an unusually good one but primary education seems a lot more structured, professional, and enjoyable for the children than in my day.

I think there is a better basic standard now than in the past. Many of the older females (70+) in my family have very few qualifications compared with the males. I think opportunities for women have opened up, and it is more equal now the grammar system has gone in most areas.

There's often talk of exams being easier now - I don't know about this but the expectations of even very young children seem much higher to me than when I was at school.

I dont know what the answer is really
I have a teen who refuses to wear a coat. There are umpteen threads on the matter from other parents too whis kids also refuse to wear appropriate clothing for the weather.

Also umpteen threads from people judging small kids for being outside with no coat or hat etc

The truth is most of us probably spend our days trying to get our kids to do things like pack.a hat or wear a coat, sort themselves out etc to the point mornings etc become stressful and everyone s snapping at eachother and its just horrible .

I dont think anyone can surely honestly say that they haven't at least wondered if having to sit in wet clothes for a bit might achieve in one day what you've been trying to do for months.

Course we don't actually do it because the school call you to bring it In anyway