To think education wasn’t actually any better in the past?

[educationnow]

I keep saying this, but no one seems to believe me so it might well just be my perceptions!

I started school in 1985, so I did start in the glory days (apparently) when there was no national curriculum.

Teaching was TERRIBLE! We learned nothing about SPAG, Maths was ‘work through a textbook’, teachers were sarcastic and cutting, bullying was rife. I’m sure there were many decent ones, but safeguarding wasn’t a thing and some of the things the teachers said and did in primary school were awful.

I started secondary in 1992, and bullying was still a huge issue, as was behaviour. We had SATs in Year 9 and a lot of our GCSEs had a heavy coursework weighting, so there was a lot of cheating.

I then started teaching myself in 2003. Behaviour was dire and I joined the TES forums where teachers kept commenting how much better behaviour had been ten/twenty years ago. My subject had coursework - cheating went on.

Then controlled assessments came in in 2010/11 (I think!) endless stress getting them in and up to standard and marking the things.

Now … very content heavy curriculum. Behaviour still an issue. Endless systems relating to technology - show my homework, Frog, ClassCharts. I wish we just used one.

I don’t think there’s ever been a golden age. I think every age has had problems, some unique to that time but some like poor behaviour has just always been an issue.

I went to school 60s 70s in Scotland - it seems to vary across the country but my primary school was v good, strict, rote learning, that way by year 7 everyone could read write spell and do basic maths well, write neatly.
But having read some essays by yr 7 (still at primary in Scotland) recently the level imagination and description was way beyond our capabilities - but what they watch and read is so different.
A bit of bullying in secondary by teachers and pupils but bad behaviour nothing compared to today. Belt was still used (I was only belted once).

All too often, teachers are expected to also be the parent to their class of thirty 5 year olds. Children arrive in Reception unable to get changed into PE kit without help. Unable to sit still for even 5 minutes. Unable to stand in line. Unable to use the bathroom properly. Unable to use cutlery properly. Unable to change their shoes without help. Unable to comprehend they are not the centre of the teacher's universe. The list just goes on and on.

Schools and teachers should be spending 90% of their time actuallyteaching and only 10% pastoral/parenting. But it often seems the other way around.

I left senior school in1983, I was very quiet and was basically ignored by every single teacher. They concentrated on the noisier ones, whether that was good or naughty noise it didn't matter, either way they got the attention. I know teachers don't like the way things are so regulated now and it has probably gone too far, but at least they have to account for every child nowadays.

I did 9 o levels and 4 A levels and left in early 1980s.
live had 2 dc go through their gcse, As and a levels and on to uni and now both working in their 20s

my view if that courses have changed from o levels to gcse in particular. Neither was harder or easier. O levels used to be very fact based, memory driven stuff. But bear in mind there was no internet so knowing stuff by memory was important (supposedly!). GCSE appear much more about application of facts or methods..certainly in sciences which is where me and dc specialised. Even in maths. For a lot of kids this application teaching rather than theoretical makes it more accessible and “easier” to grasp than just teaching a theory…but it takes different skills to then be able to apply that knowledge in the types of questions asked in exams.

so I don’t think it was easier or harder. Just different.

I don’t think A levels changed that much…it was always down to exam boards anyway. I did Nuffield sciences which were notoriously difficult. I re sat my physics under a different exam board and it was so much easier. I do think for maths it had dumbed down a bit though…some of harder stuff was taken out basically becuase of the power of calculators that meant old methodologies were just not being used any more.

@Whatwouldscullydo I think the changes you mention come more from changes in society, a very child centred family structure (which is good in many way but can lead to very pampered offspring!) and of course, the massive change, the Internet.

I think there are pros and cons of both.

I went to one primary school in the 70s where kids were cained for bad behaviour which is just awful. I then went to a much better primary school where the only homework I had was a bit of comprehension during my final year.

At secondary school in the 80s I would have done better with doing GCSEs and coursework rather than final marks being dependant on one exam.

I was at school in the late fifties and through the sixties. Primary school was strict but it had to be since there were forty children in a class (I counted them on an old school photo) and TAs non existent.

Then onto a girls' grammar school as I passed the infamous 11+. For those who failed, their education was pretty much over. They went to a secondary modern school and didn't take GCEs. There was an option to transfer to the grammar school for A level but in practice it was rare. They generally finished up in a shop, a factory or as secretaries.

The education at the grammar school was excellent, often given by teachers who were unmarried, since they entered teaching when it was a choice between teaching and marriage.

The 11+ system didn't last very long but it was an unfair and divisive system, which effectively influenced a child's whole future from the age of 11.

For children who are in a good primary or comprehensive school today (my grandchildren), their education appears to be excellent, although I'm only going on what they say as I'm not directly involved.

I agree. I think my 15 and 18 year old have had a much better education than I did. The teaching seemed much more low effort and less rigorous in 70s and 80s than 2008 to now. I went to a grammar and my kids go/went to a comp.

Who TF thinks it was better in the past

Teachers!

just

Yes its not just schools I know. There have always been problems. I hated school in the 80s and 90s. But I think the difference is I could articulate why. I could see the sexism etc .

Now kids will hate school to basically follow the crowd. The encouragement of debate and all views considered isnt allowed. And now we have the purity level of the source to contend with. Bo ability to see facts exist regardless if who says them and agreeing with one thing someone said or wrote does not mean you agree with anything.

With my kids I do however find it hard to instill the need for being organised and putting effort in as not doing so is disrespectful to the teacher who's spent the time organising the lesson, when the teachers themselves are setting home work.on the app at all hours of the day ups until the evening. We've had the notification go off approaching 9/10 pm before.

With regards to the previous poster saying about how I wished kids to be cold and hungry ( of course I dont i was merely saying that as a result of this happening even small kids got into the habit of packing bags and making sure they had everything. Pe kits for example weren't left at school all term) the truth is back then kids ate breakfast and would go home ajd have dinner at 4/5 o clock. There was no snacking as no one could afford to throw dinner away uneaten. It was one meal and no one died because of that one meal. Now with kids snacking on the way to school and being met after school with more snacks tje amount of food missed out on in our kinds seems so.much greater and something people can't fathom kids missing out.

Even though school dinners are gross kids dont eat them but parents refuse to send packed lunches because they hate making them or think.school dinners are cheaper. The end result is the same the.kid went hungry. The only difference is with school dinners the blame.lies elsewhere.

I was educated privately in the 70s and 80s, and my youngest is now at college.

I think the education my DDs have received through the state (RI/good primary, good comp) has in general been very good. They were encouraged to succeed, had a well balanced curriculum, with a variety of teaching methods).

The demands on teachers these days appears to be too high in terms of hours, but the education they provide is good in my experience.

I went to a state primary in the south of England in the early 80s. We did loads. Lots of outings, project work, a lot of written work generally and a big emphasis on reading good literature. The teachers were generally very interested in our progress and appeared to enjoy their work.

I hated secondary school with passion but there was plenty of content, and as there was no BYOD I reckon we got through the work pretty well.

The downside was the bullying and the occasional teacher who shouldn't have been anywhere near teaching, but there weren't many of them.

I read somewhere that until the 80s English primary schools were the best in the world.

Do people really think this?

I was at school in the 70s/80s. No one had a fucking clue what was going on in primaries. Secondaries obviously you did because exam results, but in many poorer areas the expectations were way lower than they are now.

There's a lot wrong with education now - we overtest, not enough time teaching etc. But certainly those were not halcyon days. If people perceive kids as having been better behaved then I think that is simply that much less effort was made to get results from less able/difficult kids so they weren't a bother. If levels of literacy are down I guess that could be to do with lack of SN provision, or that resources go into more able kids.. but it could also be that literacy is better tested now.

But I’m not totally sure that’s the case@Whatwouldscullydo

I think with regard to harsher punishments, I work in a secondary school and if they forget their PE kit, they get a detention, if they forget their coat, they get wet, it was ever thus.

Of course, pre 88 we did have corporal punishment but that’s not something I think even the most fervent of ‘the good old days’ supporters would want.

I also think it’s a bit of a myth that parents were overwhelmingly supportive back in the day. I remember a few irate parents from my time in secondary school. I also had several difficult ones when I started teaching myself. My dad remembers a friend of his promising to ‘sort the teacher out’ because his son was in trouble, this was when I was in my pram so probably 1981/1982.

I think dc's emotional needs are met much better nowadays in schools which not a bad thing.

I was at school in the 90s and our Infants/Juniors were two separate schools but on the same site and the majority of kids transitioned from the same Infants upto the Juniors, only in the Infants the dc all stayed in the same class (3 form entry) whereas in the Juniors the dc were mixed up in classes.

I remember the transition from year 2 upto year 3 (Juniors) being terrible because I really struggled with the change of being in a bubble of a familiar school with the same class for 3 years to suddenly having a different class and a different school. I was a very shy quiet child too. It didn't help that we moved house twice as well then moved school/area too later on.

I moved up to Juniors in September which I was really struggling with, November we moved house (had lived in same place since a baby) only it was only a 6 month lease, so we moved again in the following May. New flat was in a different area so my mum had to enrole me into a new Primary for September and we had to get the bus to school to finish the school year.

So in one academic year I had transitioned to Juniors, moved house twice, moved to a new area and started a new school in the following September where I joined in year 4 so was always "the new girl" as the majority had been there since year R. Yet I was just expected to get on with it!

I never felt secure at school again until I started secondary school where I started with everyone else in year 7. In year 9 though, the classes were mixed up to accommodate different levels of academics and again I struggled. I missed most of year 10 and 11 and had no support, the school just thought I was bunking off. Nowadays it would be known as anxiety and depression, which has continued for me from then on.

So when people talk about "mamby pamby" children and us molly cuddling them in school nowadays and how we should be making them just get on with it, just no! Don't baby them I agree, but there is nothing wrong with supporting children through things they are finding difficult, even if the majority are getting on with it.

I am a primary school teacher and can tell you that the curriculum is many times more rigorous now than when I was at school in the 80s. We had SMP maths, which was basically teach yourself and most of the rest of the time I seemed to spend making things out of cardboard boxes.

SEND support is sadly going backwards though with pupils with additional needs being left unsupported due to a lack of funding. If anything, there were probably more special school places back then.

Dealing with bullying and safeguarding was virtually non-existent back then though and things are much better now.

Of course there are always going to be parents like that.

When I was at high school for the most parents stayed out of it more. If you got into trouble they'd back the teacher etc

In fact there were times my.parent's could probably have stepped in with things that the school got very wrong but they didn't.

But face book and social media etc has definitely allowed for more of a mob mentality to form

Don't get me wrong the groups have been great for reminders and information that gets missed amongst the multiple emails a week. But the flip side is it does also allow parents to wind eachother up on things and look for ways to assign blame elsewhere.

" that's the schools job" was not a phrase you ever really heard. Now, I've.lost count of how many times I've heard it or read it. For things our parent's would not have dreamed of sending kids in unable to do

I can see that things like WhatsApp groups contribute to that. And of course schools are encouraged to build relationships with parents and I’m aware this can be a double edged sword.

I think parents probably demand more from schools and teachers now in terms of standards. The jury is out as to whether that’s good or bad.

I do remember at a secondary girls school in the 80s we had a teacher who would subject us to stories of her live in lover, and accuse girls of being lesbians if they were affectionate to each other. There were a couple of teachers who would make gay jokes too. I am glad this kind of thing wouldn't be tolerated now. It was a really hostile environment to homosexuality.

Maybe that was your experience but it wasn't mine. I went to a state school 10 years earlier, where the teaching was good. I loved it. I wasn't bullied, and behaviour like you describe wouldn't have been tolerated for a second.

Despite being from a fsm family, with absolutely no support and a df who didn't believe in educating women, I managed 9 O'levels, 3 A'levels and a science degree, graduating in 1985. I owe all of it to my teachers. Without them I'd have ended up filing in a factory somewhere (the life my 'd'f had planned for me).

I absolutely loved my primary school(mid to late 70s), but it was a very traditional style of education. Lots of reading, rote learning, dictation for handwriting, grammar and spelling. Nature Tables were a big thing 🌲 and that’s the only homework I remember getting, “Find something for the Nature Table, children!”.
Behaviour expectations were very high.
SEN provision was nonexistent. The children who got ‘the slipper’ in front of the whole school obviously had forms of SEN/neglect etc, looking back.
If you were good and liked reading, you were fine. I struggled with Maths but it was handwaved away. After all, I was Top Set, so I shouldn’t have found Maths difficult . Secondary was no better as you were in the same stream for all subjects. I would have been much better in second set Maths, but it wasn’t an option.

@Saucery yes, I remember primary similarly. I think it was more playful as well and also no homework, which I think was a good thing.

I went to a crap comp in the late 70s/early 80s. It was dire. Pupil behaviour was appalling which never seemed to be tackled. Teachers were having nervous breakdowns, leaving and never seen again. I suffered horrendous bullying right from the first day to the day I left - I hated it. Teachers didn't give a toss about bullying. I started as a straight A* pupil and left without a single O level.

I effectively taught myself after I left, with a few evening classes. I got low but good enough grades in A levels, to get admittance as a trainee in one of the main accountancy bodies and then taught myself (again with odd evening classes) through the 18 professional accountancy exams and eventually became a qualified accountant.

I absolutely hated my crap comp secondary school years and the bullying has left me with life long issues. People are deluded if they think education was better in those days!