Are all Y4 girls like this?

[Jennybeans401]

Dd in Y4 and throughout the year has struggled with being left out and bullied off and on. The school don't seem to take it seriously and think that this is what girls at this age are like.

Are all Y4 girls like this though? My other dcs are younger so I don't know. Yesterday dd came home and said a group of the girls were all loudly saying dd was last in every event at sports day (not true but dd believed them as it had been very close).

She got really upset, not really because of the sports day but more because it felt like they were ganging up on her. This seems to happen a lot where the group turn on her and either blame her for something or make fun of her. It's off and on but seems to be always dd.

I think this is very common yes.onset of puberty. Hormones starting off . Girls seem to be able to sense one's that are softer somehow.i would start to get arsey .tell the head .if nothing more done speak to the council. Last resort move school

You mention it's a mixed year class - is it a very small school? I only ask as I think friendship issues can be worse when there isn't a lot of choice as everyone aware of it and desperate to fit in with the kingmakers. Plus people who don't necessarily want to be in the same group are sometimes forced to be. In larger schools, friendships seem to be more fluid but as a result kids who cant get on find it easier to stay away from each other. My daughter's year 4 class did seem to have a lot of fallings out but tbh not bullying. Just all having huge sobbing bust ups but being besties again by the weekend.

The only time DD3 had an issue with bullying was at the end of Year 4. We were moving away so never got very far with it, but took her out of school for the last week, which was a shame as she loved that school
But in your shoes I would absolutely hop on it.

It is always the "loveliest" girls that are the bitchiest.

Girls -- psychological torture of another for a whole term, to point of suicide. "Oh they're lovely girls really"
Boys -- argument, bit of rough and tumble, all friends again. "Punish them for their violence".
"Girls mature so much more quickly than boys".

I think bullying happens less, but when it does happen, it's more cruel, and unrelenting.

No way. There’s 12 girls in dds class and just one like this. There were a lot of complaints from parents and she stopped being like this.

Y4 is quite young but it doesn’t surprise me.

This is what girls are like.
They group up together and turn on one person and then they’ll change the person a couple days later.

Your DD has more than likely been part of a group that’s leaving someone out and has joined in with the bitching as this is what they do to stay in the group.

The issue here is that the school is very small. When the class is bigger they can fall out with each other and join another group, whereas here there’s no one else to play with.

My DD was lucky as she played with mainly boys but I remember Y5/6 the girls would tease her for it so she started hanging around the girls more and that’s when all of the drama started.

I was going to suggest her doing some after school clubs to make different friends but I don’t think that will work in this situation.
She could move schools but this could easily happen at the new school too.

I would definitely try and get her involved in a club like brownies which has girls from other schools in as then she has other kids to play with outside of school so she never feels like she has no friends.

Of course they’re not all like this …. The same way not all men cheat and not all women are bitches in the office 🙄

On a more helpful note - I started to log every single incident my dd told me about, after 2/3 weeks the list was quite extensive of ‘silly tittle tattle, girls being girls’ idiocy (plus s few harsher things), I then went to the class teacher with the list and asked for a copy of their anti bullying policy. The teacher was horrified when he saw the list - it had far more impact when he could see in black and white the daily things that were happening to dd. He immediately confirmed it was bullying and dealt with it. There’s a lot more to the story but that’s irrelevant for now.

I realise they’re at the end of the school year now, but if you can start a list in retrospect I would do that and pop in to see them. If not, I’d definitely start it next school year.

Dd now aged 19 was bullied on and off throughout school, escalating in secondary school, by frenemies.

It started at around Y4 too, and the schools attitude was just like yours. I strongly feel that the primary school's refusal to acknowledge the reality of what was happening and nip it in the bud, set the trajectory for the girl's behaviour towards DD forever more.

I taught Y4 in a three form entry junior school. During my time I came across perhaps three real boy wannabe Flashman or Malfoy bullies. But I can't count the number of girls. Not always in my class, and sometimes there were years when none of us had one. I remember, though, one year when I had two cliques, and it was horrendous to deal with as we had nothing in place to deal with it. We happened to go on an INSET say which dealt very well with classroom behaviour problems from boys, but when I asked the bookstall if they had anything about girls, they said "You mean female relational bullying?" and then said that a book was coming out the following year.
I suggest you use the term in conversation with the school, as it puts it into a context which is not the lovely girls in your DD's class.
The lovely girls, in my experience, are pretty, fairly well off in area context, stereotyped in dress out of uniform, have a sense of entitlement and suck up to staff they see as susceptible. (That's quite subtle, they didn't try it with me, possibly recognising that I was not pretty and did not dress properly.)
From a quite different source, an elderly lady friend of my sister's (also a teacher), when we were discussing the issue over tea at a garden centre told us "They plan what they are going to do the night before." We didn't know where to look! How could she know that, unless she had been one of them?
Those girls bullying your DD know perfectly well what they are doing. It won't stop at the end of Y4.
If the head won't accept that it is going on ("we don't have any bullying at our school" - never true*) you do need to change.
Our school introduced "Talk time" where children could submit private requests to discuss issues with TAs trained to deal with problems, which worked quite well, though was open to abuse. I once came across something going on with one group of girtls concerned about being kept out of a game, and another group, the ones who had done the exclusion, giggling about putting in a counter accusation. I, against the rules, read the messages and alerted the TA. It was. largely, a good idea, though.
*(The very elderly mother of a friend told me that the school she attended never had any bullying. Knowing her, and the conversation the remark was buried in, I said nothing, but he said, later, she was doing it. It doesn't stop at Y4.)

So now you need to start logging all current and previous communication with school - verbal & email. State what they have done to this point is not acceptable and your DD is still suffering.
Ask to see their bullying policy (it should be readily available or even on the website). Tell them which points they haven't actioned.
Ask for the chair of governors email address and send them all the same letter.
Quote the ethos of the school to them and say how it is failing your child.

You need to start escalating and being difficult for the school to ignore

This was exactly what I wanted to say, but you have said it so eloquently and clearly know what you are talking about..

OP ..if it doesn't feel right to you then it is not right, You know your daughter inside and out and as someone who has had a relentless year of similar then sadly it is down to us to make a complete nuisance of ourselves until the school do the right thing,At the end of the day you have to protect your daughter Your dds health,safety and mental health is riding on this, Be one of those mums and keep at it for your daughter. The only thing that matters here is your little girl and her wellbeing.Make a fuss stand your ground , I hope it all works out for you.Moving schools may seem a good idea but the kids will be the same where ever you go there may be difficulties so keep on til you exhaust every outcome,Make yourself heard her first,stop being so polite and kick ass til they do something.I did i had to and i made myself very unpopular but i wasnt taking anymore passive bullshit from school. I was simply not having it,not buying their excuses and ineffectivness and sounds likeyou are going to have to do the same for your dd. It is just not fair and cruel to brush off things like this like the school have tried to do.Look after your girl and make them act properly before the summer break.

Go back to your school and mention the bullying policy but also look up peer on peer abuse. It's the new big thing and your school should have a separate policy just for that. Ofsted is also closely looking at this so they will have to respond.

It is so difficult - I have been working with some older girls with similar issues. Sometimes it's just a look or a laugh, but it makes the victim so uncomfortable. The only I would say is that it is hard to prove - if the teachers do not see it, it is difficult for them to do much. There should be assemblies and tutor chats on kindness though - at least to start. Then getting the girls together to chat maybe? Depends on the girls. Each instance is different.

Ex teacher here. No, I would say Y4 girls are usually not like this. It sounds more like Y6 behaviour

Agree with PP - go back to school and kick up more. They have a duty of care for your DD and should have solutions. Ask for their bullying policy. Write to the governors if you still aren't getting anywhere.

End of year is nigh. Hopefully DD will have a good summer break and Y5 will be an improvement for her.

Ask to see the school's anti bullying policy - in writing. Then ask the Head what it being done to protect your daughter - and whether she is using a different definition of "lovely" to the rest of us! I have taught this year group and there are many, many steps that can be taken to help a child in your DC's situation. Everything in writing so you can show that the school is aware - and keep up the pressure. Bullying has a lasting impact on children. And whilst it seems to be the standard wisdom that bullies have low self esteem a study by Scientific American showed that the opposite is often true - they have such high self esteem that no-one else matters. Bullies need to have their egos stroked by another mechanism than hurting others, and this can be taught. Victims need the comfort and support of a stronger ally. A teacher can easily raise a child's status in a gentle and subtle way. Incidentally, when tackling such issues I found it helpful to suggest a third party had expressed concern - that way the victim isn't labelled a grass. Speaking up is hard for a child - I used to tell my class to leave me a note on their work or on my desk if they needed to talk and then I would quietly find a way of talking with them privately. These situations can be resolved but it has to be in school - where the problem is. All the best.

It's been how it's been for my daughter :(

Unfortunately you cannot control these girls but you can help your daughter to recognise the toxic dynamic and give her tools for dealing with it which will help there throughout life. Read Queen Bees and Wannabees or the The Friendship Maze. These books map out the dynamics of cliques and give techniques for dealing with them. My DD went through the same in year 4 and again in year 7. It was much easier second time around as she knew how to deal with it (and was also in a much bigger school). Your daughter unfortunately is "the Target" and you need to help her move out of that role. Good luck.

It's how it's panned out for both of mine - difference has been in how the schools deal with it - school number 1 you get one conversation with the Head who will have all the kids in for a "restorative discussion" and then refuse to speak to you again as she considers the matter dealt with - that school have an absolutely endemically awful bullying problem - including staff singling out kids they dislike (or who have "tricky" parents) and making their lives crappy too.

So we moved the kids and DD2 is year 4 at the moment, struggles with social stuff anyway - but there were a group of girls who were being unkind to a few within the class and school have come down on it very gently (they're still little) but firmly and it seems to have been nipped in the bud.

In my experience my two best friends ditched me in Y5 and I didn't really have any friends in Y6. So I went to a school where I knew no one for seniors as a fresh start.

A similar thing happened in Y9, after which I made friends with an amazing group of friends who I'm still close to 25 years later.

So I do think it's common, but it is also painful. And there are other, nicer friends out there.

I don't all girls are like that but I've certainly seen the 'teasing' and being left out of friendship groups (in a really subtle bit hurtful way). I would speak to the teacher.

I think this is where it starts in a calculated, strategic way by Y4 girls.

My daughter navigated this as she found herself not one of ' cool, pretty, well off' girls , having previously been popular due to her personality and friendliness.

I think if you have never been through this, either yourself or with a child, you are extremely lucky.

What I would say is that your daughter will find her tribe and be happy with new friends, but that won't stop the bullying. Unfortunately it seems to be a constant part of school life despite the mealy mouthed policies of schools; Heads and teachers are very reluctant to admit they have a problem.

A couple of possible solutions

1. Write to the school one last time, copying in the school governors. You then know you have tried EVERYTHING on an official route.
2. Whilst making it clear to your daughter NONE of this is her fault, encourage her to stand up for herself more, looking into confidence and resilience resources, and encourage her to find out of school groups and classes where she can make new friends.

These bullies will have a sense of entitlement passed down from parents, so there's no point in speaking to them; there will be denial or even threats from the parents. They will probably have been bullies themselves. Remember that in general we are living in a less caring, considerate society, which is more selfish and entitled than it has ever been .

Sounds like one of those schools that put aside childrens welfare and happiness to focus on paperwork and academic results just for their Ofsted rating.

OP - the school actually sounds shit. You have Stockholm Syndrome…

'lovely girls', I see. DS2 had told me many times that he had female teachers with this attitide who never saw anything wrong with girls getting up damaging his work and insulting him during class hour or doing worse to other children as "we are sisters" and all girls are lovely apparently.

Come to think of it DS1 had also told me about a group of girls ganging up on a boy they thought was weak beating him up and DS had to intervene and physically stop them as again the teachers would never have believed the boy as again they were brilliant.

Now that I am thinking about it there was also a boy filthily swearing at DS3 while they were playing cricket during break time and the teachers and support staff again were shocked "but he is such a good and polite boy".

OP, if it is any use tell them that the matter is not what they think about those girls but it's facts, their attitude and actions that matter which clearly show that they are not such good girls. They condone this behaviour and you will NOT tolerate it. You expect your DD to come home with an apology from the girls showing that they have spoken to them in no uncertain terms.

Many children behave in class and especially girls are good at appearing pleasant.