Living off a man!!!

[iabr]

If you are among the posters on here who always sneer at SAHMs for 'living off the husband,' do you also -

• sneer at women who work PT and therefore earn less than their husbands - so are, by definition, also 'living off the husband" to a greater or lesser extent?

• sneer at women who work full-time, but still earn significantly less than the husband, so the house and other expenses are largely funded by his higher income anyway?

• sneer at any woman who has a dual income lifestyle that she couldn't maintain on her own salary / wealth?

I really don't want to get into endless personal anecdotes of - "Well I earn £x and DH earns £x..." This is about the issue of 'financial independence' within families per se. - ie . recognising that it's accrued family wealth that determines financial independence and it's not necessarily always as simple as who earns what. A SAHM may well have greater financial independence than a woman on a high salary, depending on that family's underlying financial circumstances.

So AIBU to say to MN - Stop telling SAHMs they are 'financially vulnerable' - unless you know the details of their unique financial family circumstances!

But @BessieFinkNottle why should other people apart from your husband value what you’re doing? The only people it benefits is him and you. There is no discernible difference in outcomes for children of stay at home vs working parents so it’s not like you not working is creating “better” children. If it’s a decision that suits you both and you’re willing to make yourself more financially vulnerable to achieve it then that’s great but no one else needs to value it.

Maybe they’re just a bit envious?

People only point out that SAHM mothers don’t pay taxes in response to the argument that SAHM need to feel “recognised and valued”. That is completely different to saying SAHM are a “drain on society” which nobody has claimed.

I believe you're overthinking it.

@missdemeanors

No, it's not as simple as that and it's not something that happens in real life either really. It's online and on MN. I've seen it several times and so have the other SAHMs on here. I'll try and go back and dig out some quotes for you if I have time later on, but, really, if you try reading this thread carefully, from a SAHPs perspective, you'll see what I mean. And other MN threads are far worse.

@BessieFinkNottle

If I say I feel my work at home isn't respected it's usually in response to someone who says that they're an equally good parent (yes, I totally agree) plus they work too. They seem superior about this last fact.

You say people see insults that aren't there and then you immediately go on to see an insult which isn't there because some random woman you met has casually told you in conversation they work as well as bringing up children?

And then you go on to say that other women don't value the unpaid childcare you provide to your family, but frankly, why should they? Your domestic arrangements are your concern and you're entitled to set them up as you see fit but why should a woman who does have to work for a living "value" the fact that you don't? When it makes no difference to her at all? That just makes so sense.

It's totally understandable that women choose not to work and they should absolutely respected for this but I don't see why those of us who do have to should afford you some special status because you're saving your own family childcare costs?

TBH you do sound a bit defensive. And I sort of understand why because SAHMs do get picked on sometimes on these threads but this sort of post doesn't help at all.

@Thepeopleversuswork

No it's on here, people are fine in RL.

And by value I also just mean to respect my choice as a pp said.

The insults are there. Other SAHPs see them too.
A pp spoke about gaslighting, it can feel like that sometimes I must say. Please don't think I'm imagining things.

Trouble is, without knowing what people are thinking, it's impossible to know their intention. Unless someone is being downright offensive (which as we've seen goes both ways) then sometimes i think people get misinterpreted as being judgemental or jealous or dismissive when actually they may just be stating a fact!

Bottom line is, anyone who has a choice is fortunate. I feel fortunate that I earned enough that with 3 children close in age, I could still afford to work. Took all my salary mind you for a few years but hey ho!

Another thing to remember is that it can all feel very emotive when you're in the thick of it with babies and little children but now I'm at the tail end of my career (I'm late 50s) and my 3 children are adults it's so much easier to see that it's the outcome that matters - raising happy, healthy, positive members of society.

I agree you are not imagining that a lot of women actively dislike the concept of SAHMs. Some will tell you this directly using language that you find insulting. Others make their views clear by the points they raise. I'd go as far as to say that many people, while respecting your right to choose your lifestyle, don't respect you for the decision you've made. These feelings are obvious from some posts. But in all honesty, other than putting forward a challenge in debate and reporting comments that breech guidelines, you can't police peoples thoughts or censor their right to express them.

Ai.. they found your sore spot didnt they??

If, in not paying a childcare worker, I have done that "childcare" myself for free - with the additional spin-off effect that I have 'facilitated' my husband to create over 3,000 real jobs in the U.K. economy...

If your husband can do that, he can do it with or without you 'facilitating'. 🙄

@BessieFinkNottle

I think some working women do give SAHMs a hard time, yes. Both on here and in RL. There is some cattiness about people "not using their brains" and "being so bored" etc. I'm sure you've heard it all.

It cuts both ways tbh.

For every: "you must be so bored", there's:

"what's the point in having children only to farm them out to childcare" or

"you'll never get the time back!". (Well no shit, Sherlock).

All of these are stunningly unhelpful clichés and if I had a pound for every time I'd heard one of these I'd be a billionaire. Of course we should respect one another's choices. Of course we should try not to hurt one another. Sometimes, on both sides, people are dishonest about their motives and are being nasty under the guise of "having a debate".

But tbh whether deliberate or not, some of your comments fit into this category: there is no reason why anyone should place societal value on the fact that you don't work. The fact that you seek "value" or approval from working mums for this does imply that you think your contribution, whether to your own children or to society, is in some way superior to ours. Which doesn't make us feel great, tbh and no thank you I don't believe you have extra "value" just by virtue of the fact that your financial needs are cared for.

If you feel gaslit by some of the comment you get from working women, I feel quite gaslit when you say "but I'm creating value" as a parent. Because the clear implication is that I'm not.

Do what you do and seek respect by all means. But if you seek to be "valued" for having the luxury of not having to work you are always honestly going to rub people who do have to work up the wrong way.

It seems that the extra hours of childcare I do - which I'd have to pay someone to do if I worked outside the home - mean absolutely nothing. This sort of unpaid domestic work has no value even in the eyes of other women. The fact that I'm saving my household childcare fees is disregarded as meaningless by some

Hmmm. I always somewhat roll my eyes at statements like this because being a SAHM means you do have more time to yourself than in you’re a working parent.

I took early maternity leave this year and so have been a sort of SAHM in a sense (although not reliant on husbands wages) and I spend a lot of time on my arse hanging around on MN. I always find it odd when SAHMs say how busy they are with childcare and domestic duties. That might be true if you have a toddler and a baby, but once the kids are at school age it’s really not a massive chore to spend a few hours a day doing laundry / cleaning loos / organising the window cleaner.

So I think that’s why there isn’t as much respect for the sort of statements about homemakers, I really struggle to understand what people actually spend their days doing, whereas when you’re a working parent you have to cram all the domestic stuff that’s not outsourced in to your early morning or evening.

While I'd agree that it's male attitudes generally towards 'womens work' that has the biggest impact on society, it isn't men being insulting to me - that's coming from other women. The ones who I'm expected to care about if they're experiencing sexism at work!

@Marchmount , can you lay off with the 1950's housewife bullshit please. That's the kind of low level insidious nastiness that sahm are putting up with all the time.

In fairness, men aren't going to insult you for taking on a role that benefits them as individuals and as a group. While it's in the interests of some men for their own partner to work, men as a group are better served by women's absence from the workplace. Aside from the individual benefits of having a facilitator, the fewer women move into positions of influence, with voices heard outside the home, the fewer who become economically independent the more male privilege and power is safeguarded.
And you're not supposed to care about women experiencing sexism at work because they support you being a SAHM. You're supposed to care because sexism in the workplace isn't confined to the workplace. It spills over into every aspect of life. Just because some women have found a way to benefit from a sexist society (and fair play to them, genuinely) doesn't make them immune to the negative impact on us all.

This is an excellent explanation!

And it's just such a shitty attitude - why am I meant to care about you experiencing sexism at work when you don't value the 24/7 parenting I do enough?

How about because, as PP said, sexism isn 't reserved for the office. Perhaps you could care about being considered equal to men - and having equal value and oppertunities - for yourself, or for principles of fairness or for your daughers/ grandaughters. Rather than this tit for tat nonsense....

The fact that you seek "value" or approval from working mums for this does imply that you think your contribution, whether to your own children or to society, is in some way superior to ours.

No, again you are reading things that aren't there.
I want to be respected as a equal, that's all. I am not a SAHM by choice if that makes any difference, not that it should. I'd love to work so why would I look down on WOHMs?

If you feel gaslit by some of the comment you get from working women, I feel quite gaslit when you say "but I'm creating value" as a parent. Because the clear implication is that I'm not.

But I didn't say I'm creating value as a parent.
What I said is my work (doing extra childcare) deserves respect as does your work outside the home. And that we are equals as parents.

I don't expect you to care that I am a sahm, nor do I expect people to think it has extra value because in all honesty it doesn't outside of the individual family, but I do expect not to be insulted for it. Because while wohm think that sah gives unfair support to men, it equally true that lots of parents benefit from wider family support, grandparents who take on a lot of the family responsibilities. It isn't sahm fault that there aren't workplace crèches as standard or a culture of more family friendly hours. We aren't able to influence those things anymore than the women who are in the workplace. But we are still spoken to as if we are bad feminists for doing what is personally beneficial just as wohm do.

It may be a personal failing, but I can't bring myself to care about the difficulties of those wohm who call sahm leeches or worse.

Sexism in the workplace holds women back from progressing in their careers. If women can successfully fight that that will down the line be of benefit to other women including our daughters and granddaughters and give them access to more opportunities.

Your 24/7 childcare is between you & your family. Children can be minded outside the home or in the home. Feminism gave women more opportunities outside of the home. The negative IMO was that it also lead to two income households so some women who may want to stay at home do not have that choice.

@ImAvingOops

While I'd agree that it's male attitudes generally towards 'womens work' that has the biggest impact on society, it isn't men being insulting to me - that's coming from other women. The ones who I'm expected to care about if they're experiencing sexism at work!

Sexism doesn't only apply at work, it applies across all levels of society and it affects SAHMs as much as working ones (some would say more so). Sexism makes it harder for women to get a fair deal in all aspects of their life, and its still endemic, whether its unequal pay or lack of representation in certain jobs or the attitudes that lead men to attack or rape or insult women when they're out at night to men not pulling their weight at home. Despite everything that's happened over the past 50 years its absolutely everywhere and it affects everyone.

Are you saying that if your DD (if you have one) was experiencing at work you wouldn't care? You'd tell her to roll over and take?

I'm sure you don't think that. So why should sexism only be an issue for working women? Are you basically saying: "I'm alright Jack, I have a man to take care of me?"

What's your point?

Agree there is also a report by the Chartered Institute of Insurers that discussed risks women face.
Financial risk on becoming a SAHM is way up there Im afraid.
I always find these " Im ok Jack" posts really annoying Op , you are fine but what about other women who dont understand how financially vulnerable they are .
Selfish to close down valuable discussion because you dont like it.

Of course peopple ulimately do what's best for them as individuals. That doesn't meant that that decision doesn't have a positive or negative impact on something. Like gender equality.

I don't expect any women to go to work for the sake of feminism. We all have to make individual choices. But doing so, does negatively impact gender equality in society, that is practically undeniable.

@BessieFinkNottle

What I said is my work (doing extra childcare) deserves respect as does your work outside the home. And that we are equals as parents.

Well I certainly wouldn't disagree with you there.

I am certainly not sneering at anybody but I do value my financial independence highly, and I wouldn't ever choose to be financially dependent on someone else if I could avoid it. That isn't a value judgement on anyone else, though - just a personal preference.

Ok but in this debate let’s not forget about the kids. In my experience kids want to see go home to their own house after school. In a way it’s a life lesson as we all have to do things we don’t want to do but it is a bit sad that an entire generation spend 7-6 in creches/childcare.

I personally think minding young children in the home is a perfectly valid choice. When it comes to school aged children and teenagers, unless the husband is a very high earner or adores what they do my own view is that the wife/partner should be working part time if at all possible. Both my husband and I dislike our jobs. I wouldn’t think it was one bit fair on him that I choose not to work while the kids are in school, and I expect his family would have a view on it so I would t want to deal with that either.

Ok but in this debate let’s not forget about the kids. In my experience kids want to see go home to their own house after school. In a way it’s a life lesson as we all have to do things we don’t want to do but it is a bit sad that an entire generation spend 7-6 in creches/childcare.

I have never used CC despite being a WOHP but amongst those who did, i dont know anyone whos DC were in FT CC 7-6, usually both parents were flex or did compressed hours so that their DC were at home with a parent 2 days per week, GP one day and CC 2 days.