Living off a man!!!

[iabr]

If you are among the posters on here who always sneer at SAHMs for 'living off the husband,' do you also -

• sneer at women who work PT and therefore earn less than their husbands - so are, by definition, also 'living off the husband" to a greater or lesser extent?

• sneer at women who work full-time, but still earn significantly less than the husband, so the house and other expenses are largely funded by his higher income anyway?

• sneer at any woman who has a dual income lifestyle that she couldn't maintain on her own salary / wealth?

I really don't want to get into endless personal anecdotes of - "Well I earn £x and DH earns £x..." This is about the issue of 'financial independence' within families per se. - ie . recognising that it's accrued family wealth that determines financial independence and it's not necessarily always as simple as who earns what. A SAHM may well have greater financial independence than a woman on a high salary, depending on that family's underlying financial circumstances.

So AIBU to say to MN - Stop telling SAHMs they are 'financially vulnerable' - unless you know the details of their unique financial family circumstances!

@missdemeanors
As I said in my post, on MN I've only ever seen it in the context in my example. It's posted in a way that doesn't come across as factual. The language used in other posts usually gives an idea of how it's intended.

A common belief on here is that men often enjoy a great privilege in being able to continue their oh so fulfilling office job whilst the poor woman has to endure spending time with the children. I mean, it's every lottery winner's dream isn't it to keep slogging away earning money towards the MD's nice new yacht.

This thread is very odd. It’s hardly controversial that women who have no income could be financially vulnerable. Moreover it sounds like a statement that comes from a good place - a place of concern.

It’s hardly controversial that women who have no income could be financially vulnerable.
I agree, it's basically saying if you and your DH/DP split up then you won't be a couple anymore, or if you don't have a wage when you are in a relationship then you don't have a wage if you're single and yet people feel the need to point it out repeatedly. Bizarre.

It's actually a bit more complex than that; it's about earning potential, longer term prospects, pension provision..

And yea of course there will always be the outliers- women with trust funds, or who manage to bounce back into a senior position in the workplace after years out of it. But that isn't the norm.

It might all seem obvious stuff but if it were that obvious maybe we wouldn't have so many women who realise too late their careers prospects are damaged, or who struggle hugely after marriage break ups, or who enter retirement age with no decent occupational pension

Depends on your perspective. I'm fortunate enough to have a paid job that's fulfilling and interesting. Great colleagues, stimulating and fun. On the other hand, I found my brief stint as a SAHM an excruciating slog. It wasn't difficult, but the tedium of the cook, wash, clean, feed, play, walk, repeat actually made me feel very trapped and depressed. I was incredibly jealous of people who got to go to work, my partner included. We swapped in the end as he didn't mind the pace so much. It really depends on personality which is the hardest life to lead.

@TheLostNights

Which one of these two females are you?

@TruthHertz

A common belief on here is that men often enjoy a great privilege in being able to continue their oh so fulfilling office job whilst the poor woman has to endure spending time with the children. I mean, it's every lottery winner's dream isn't it to keep slogging away earning money towards the MD's nice new yacht.

I find the disparaging attitude towards work from some elements on here quite depressing. Whenever someone suggests its a net benefit for mothers to work someone else will pop up with a bunch of hoary old clichés about the "MD's nice new yacht" or "climbing the corporate ladder", as if people who work are all just mindless corporate automatons who do so out of greed and vanity. In this narrative all office jobs are desperately dull and all working mothers are bitter and jealous and desperate to find a man to enable them to stay at home.

Yes there are some jobs which are relentless and very stressful and many with a lot of internal politics, and yes some WOHMs stereotype SAHMs so its cuts both ways and its understandable that some SAHMs feel they have been given a hard time.

But its worth being clear about what work actually means for some of us. Work, for me, isn't a vanity project or something which enables me to swan about playing at climbing the corporate ladder. It is being able to put food on my child's table and being able to remain in my small home. I'm a single parent so if I didn't work I'd rely on benefits and be living below the poverty line.

I'm lucky enough to (mostly) also enjoy my work, for which I'm extremely grateful. Its stimulating and varied and most of the people are nice. But it means I work extremely hard and often use childcare.

In my calculation this improves my life. It means I can afford things for me and my child. It is intellectually stimulating. It supports my social life and it means I am independent and do not have to rely on either a man or the state for support.

Those of you who are lucky enough to have the choice not to work are entitled to feel that working full time doesn't suit you. But please stop with the disparaging 1980s clichés about corporate capitalism or about other people's motives for wanting to be able to support themselves. For many of us work is freedom and dignity. If you can't empathise with that then at least have the decency not to pigeonhole those of us who don't have the choice.

@Thepeopleversuswork well said.

At the end of the day, work is a fact of life for almost everyone. Very few people are born into so much wealth that they never need to do a day's work in their life.

And although a minority might make disparaging remarks about work, I have yet to meet any parent who doesn't have high aspirations for their own children. All the parents I know are keen for their children to do well at school/ university/ the job market. I have yet to meet a parent who doesn't care. Or one whose aspiration for their child is to 'marry into money' so they don't need to work.
So that tells me something.

But equally, a lot of single working women are miserable as fuck too. Not every woman has the life and career of the RG uni-educated mumsnetters on £350K a year in their 'niche' career, and living in a swanky £3 million pad by the River Thames. Many MANY single women live in an average or shitty area, in a cramped flat or terraced house, (or they house share.) And they're on the bones of their arse trying to make ends meet by begging for as many hours as they can get at work, to enable them to pay the bills. Especially single women with children.

It's a mumsnet myth that most women leave their man, start a new degree at university, and are happy and successful, and gain a huge group of new friends, a shiny new £100K+ a year career, and go on to live happily ever after with a wonderful new man. Always much younger than her of course, who looks like Tom Hardy, and even though every man wants to shag her, she stays faithful to this new man coz 'the sex is amazing.' 🙄

Yep the mumsnet fairy tale in paragraph 2 is a myth that just doesn't happen in real life. Struggling financially, and trying to make ends meet at the end of each month is way more likely for most single women with children, than the flashy, wonderful life some mumsnetters portray. (That's even the case for some single women without children too!)

It's a mumsnet myth that most women leave their man, start a new degree at university, and are happy and successful, and gain a huge group of new friends, a shiny new £100K+ a year career, and go on to live happily ever after with a wonderful new man. Always much younger than her of course, who looks like Tom Hardy, and even though every man wants to shag her, she stays faithful to this new man coz 'the sex is amazing.' 🙄

You see that a lot on here? Which board are you reading?

Of course I was being a bit flippant but are there really that many women who weren't aware of the risk they took in giving up work.
SAHM are the minority so presumably the majority of women have decided against it. The ones who are posting about things going wrong for them have either realised too late or knew and decided to do it anyway.
I'm just not sure who exactly is supposed to benefit from all this 'concern'.

are there really that many women who weren't aware of the risk they took in giving up work.

From the number of threads we get on the subject, I'd say yes. Certainly too many. Unmarried SAHM with no personal assets out the wazoo. So many people STILL believe the "common law wife" stuff.

What's worse: we continue to spread information for the sake of those who don't realise, even though we all know some women are well protected, or we cease talking about it and allow the issue to worsen, so that those protected women need never hear it?

If you're protected, great. You can dismiss the discussion or, better yet, share your own advice on staying secure.

Yes, threads on MN would certainly suggest that a lot of women aren't aware of how vulnerable they are/ could become. Plus of course it's borne out by the stats about women and their financial vulnerability compared to men. And within that group of women, the subset of women who are out of the workplace, or have significant gaps in their working life.

Ok, so @Thepeopleversuswork has very reasonably asked that people don't pigeonhole her as a working single mum.

The correct reply to that would be, "yes of course."

Or would you just come riding in on your high horse to declare the definitive situation for 'the vast majority' of single mums (no stats, just based purely on MN threads); then obfuscate her request into some imperious public service announcement for the benefit of some imaginary audience who aren't even on that thread -

"we continue to spread information for the sake of those who don't realise..."

I think a lot of people don’t think it through. Lots of us are guilty of short-term thinking. A woman may give up work when a relationship is in a good place, or because of childcare costs or if she doesn’t want to leave a baby etc. without fully considering the risks.

I have a job I loath. It is certainly a “good” job on paper but at times being a SAHM seems very attractive to me.

There are numerous threads from women who say they have up work because of childcare costs. Its actually very common - perhaps the default position - to think short term. If I'd just thought short term I might very well have given up work because for a few years our childcare costs equated to my salary! I'm glad though that I looked at the bigger picture; career progression, pension etc and chose to hang on in there.

And of course it's a balance because it's important to enjoy the moment as well as creating long term security.

Ultimately, however much the OP keeps saying this is MN 'opinion', it really isn't. Check the facts. Look at the statistics. If you don't believe that women and in particular mothers as a group are much more financially vulnerable than men, then you're living in some parallel universe

gave up

Great post.

My mum worried sick about me giving up work when I had my dc. She was a relatively young widow left with 3 kids. Fortunately my ddad always planned ahead and left us relatively secure but she had always worked and she continued to do so as she worried about not being able to provide for us. She was worried that if anything happened I would be left high and dry so she gave me some great advice about protecting myself.

As it was I was already married, everything we owned was as a couple, we had a joint account and I took care of all the finances because dh is useless with that sort of thing. I was very secure in my position and it worked well for us for 10 years. Dh knows how lucky he is that he could concentrate fully on his career without worrying about the kids and it’s paid off in a big way for us.

I’m now back at work, I earn a decent wage but not a fraction of what dh earns. I still take care of the finances and know exactly where every penny is. If I was that way inclined I would have a better chance of hiding assets than dh.

But not every situation is the same. If dh and I weren’t married, if we didn’t share a bank account, if he was secretive about his earnings or stingy and talked about ‘his’ money or if he hadn’t been willing to pay his share of things like childcare and maternity costs in the first instance there is no way I would have entered into this arrangement. It only works if there is full transparency and trust. If there isn’t you shouldn’t put yourself at risk. It’s important to protect yourself and some women don’t have anywhere to discuss these issues. It’s good that they have somewhere they can seek advice.

@WhileMyGuitarGentlyWeeps

Yep the mumsnet fairy tale in paragraph 2 is a myth that just doesn't happen in real life. Struggling financially, and trying to make ends meet at the end of each month is way more likely for most single women with children, than the flashy, wonderful life some mumsnetters portray. (That's even the case for some single women without children too!)

What's your point with this comment though? Of course most women don't swan out of an abusive marriage with no income into a £100k + job. Most women don't have jobs like this period.

Is that a reason not to work and not to aim for financial independence? No of course its not. Any financial independence is better than none. If you're going to be working really hard to make ends meet, living in a shitty area etc, surely better that you and your children get some control over the fruits of your labour, however meagre.

I’m sorry OP my patience is thin this morning. If you managed to be a SAHM & be financially secure & also go back to part time work - good for you. Not everyone is so lucky. So instead of making people giving others advice about your ego why don’t you focus on how fortunate you have been & practice gratefulness.

Are people critical of SAHM yes, people are also critical of working mothers. A bit of criticism on an Internet forum that you can choose to avoid shouldn’t be such a big concern.

Like many people I’m about to log on to a very responsible job I hate because I need to do so to pay the bills. I have to put very young children in almost full time childcare, I’d bloody love to work part time. Equally I’m sure there are women out there desperate to get back into the workforce & many who are stuck in less than ideal situations due to lack of money.

You sound like you have it good OP - focus your energies on that.

If you're protected, great. You can dismiss the discussion or, better yet, share your own advice on staying secure.
I have done many times.

Unless you are prohibited from working by the cost of childcare, or prevented from working by a controlling husband, the decision to become a SAHM is like anything else in life, a cost-benefit analysis.

Of course if you have zero assets and would be solely dependent on your husband's salary, I wouldn't recommend living indefinitely like that.

You can't be a SAHM with a man who sees money as anything other than family money. Even if you were earning, it would all be one and the same. You have to have a husband who respects you and who values and appreciates your role (and vice versa). You are supporting him; he is supporting you and your common goal is your children and a less stressful family life. It wouldn't suit everyone, but it doesn't need to and it doesn't matter as long as you know what you're doing. Maybe the SAHM model works best when both parents feel they are getting the better deal?!!

It's a cost-benefit analysis, and many families feel the benefit of having a parent at home outweighs the cost of the loss of a second income and the cost and hassle of childcare. That's all it is. Just like people may work part-time or a few hours less for the same reasons.

If you're just going to be a SAHM for one year or two, then you will have a good idea how difficult it will be to get back into work. Totally dependent on what you do. Or maybe you have no intention of going back into that field anyway and you are using the SAH period as an opportunity to reassess, retrain or change direction.

There are many things you can do to mitigate against financial vulnerability. I could tell you how we have done that, but that's just us and irrelevant really as everyone's circumstances will be different and different women would be intending to SAH for different lengths of time. People know what's right for them and that's it really.

Yieyr are so many things that can make you financially vulnerable - taking out a mortgage you struggle with; spending or living on credit beyond your means; redundancy; lack of job security; lack of opportunity; geographical factors; mental health; illness; having an financially inept partner; a partner who gambles or who has an addiction; a partner who is financially abusive or secretive; hidden debts - all sorts of things. In any of these circumstances, there is less likely to be a SAHM, put it that way.

the7Vabo - yes I could just never mention being a SAHM to avoid the 'concern' lectures and inevitable misapprehensions, but equally you could avoid threads like this if they make you angry. Apologies anyway and have a good day.

There is a hell of a difference between never mentioning being a SAHM and starting a thread titled “living off a man!!!” bemoaning what you feel are people’s criticisms of your life choices despite the fact that they may well be coming from a place of genuine concern.
Yes I’m angered by you, lucky you that you can come to such an agreement with your husband, nobody has to gloss over financial vulnerability or financial abuse which mainly affects women to protect your ego. Because goodness forbid that you should feel your privileged life choices are subject to criticism.
If people are using this website to highlight the dangers of being financially vulnerable in relationships - good for them!!