When will someone grow a pair and create a proper justice system?

[girlfriend44]

Ava Whites killer gets 13 years today for stabbing her to death in Liverpool last November.

The judge refused to name him as well.
We just keep hearing crappy sentences and decisions all the time?
All on the side of the offender?

Do you think anything will ever change? Why couldn't we hear the news he's been locked up for 35 years and he has been named?
Someone some balls needs to take charge. Countryside an embarrassment.

And that's where I still just don't agree - human rights are for all humans, not just the ones we like, not even just the ones we think aren't morally repugnant. I don't think utilitarianism is a good philosophy to live by, because it creates perverse outcomes and options. From the point of view of utilitarianism if all criminals have no rights and zero value in society you'd just put them in an oubliette, ignore them and let them die slow and painful deaths. But most people wouldn't think that that was acceptable, and certainly wouldn't think you should do that to everyone from someone who commits a driving offense to mass murders. So then you start saying actually we do value people even if they are criminals. Is there a line at which a human life has no value at all - not for me, maybe for you. But if human life does have value, including criminal life the cheapest thing for society and the tax payer is to do our best to turn criminals into functioning members of society so we don't have to pay the costs of incarcerating them and instead they become contributing tax payers. Some people will be unable to be rehabilitated but the net cost to society is higher if you incarcerate more people for longer and don't rehabilitate them.

I generally find virtue ethics is the most representative of my views than utilitarianism anyway.

I think you have to look what is best for society as a whole. If you executed everyone convicted of a criminal offence (please note I am not advocating this) it would be great for law-abiders but some people do commit minor crimes like shoplifting when they are children and they should be given a chance at rehabilitation. But for those that commit crimes time and time again, and for those that commit serious crimes such as murder, rape and terrorism, I do not think we need to give them the benefit of the doubt. The chances of them being truly rehabilitated are very small and it is not fair to put the public at risk just on the slim chance that they do manage to turn things around.

Is there a line at which a human life has no value at all
Again this is where I struggle the criminals like the one stabbed Ava to death and the countless others who have murdered, attacked and raped, other peoples lives have no value to them, and horrendous posturing behaviour at times from some even after being sentenced is appalling.

Quite a few people who get released end up going back in anyway.

James Bulger killer was one and also Damilola Taylor killers in 2000.Obviously they werent locked up for long enough in the first place.
The worry is that the younger siblings could go the same way also.

There clearly needs to be some intervention with the parenting, otherwise all siblings could end up going down the same route.

James Bulger killer was one
I almost added this one to my list but realised I was rambling. There are certain things only the most depraved of society could ever do and those people are beyond help in my opinion.

There is no clear divide between law abiders and criminals. That is a fantasy.

And the divide between law abusers and serious criminals?

• law abiders that should read 🤦🏻‍♀️

Of course there is a line between law-abiders and criminals. The former obey the law, the latter do not obey the law. There is no grey area.

Well when the criminals assault or offend against the law abiders it seems to be 'meh oh well, how can you think negatively against them/expect punitive action (the criminals) you don't know what they've been through'

Yes, what an utterly ridiculous situation we've arrived at where we leave oversight of our criminal justice system to those trained and with the experience to do so. I mean, what next? People having surgeons perform operations? Taking your car to a qualified mechanic to be diagnosed and repaired? Expecting the people who teach our children to be literate and numerate?

Heaven forbid. Far better to leave these things in the hands of barely educated, vindictive Sun/Mail readers with no insight whatseover.

What is is about Crime/Punishment threads that brings out the absolute puddle drinkers?

Any so-called law abider could became a criminal in a heartbeat. You may want to believe there are goodies and baddies and they are distinct from one another but that’s wrong. Also consider that many criminals are very often victims of very serious crimes themselves.

I agree . The sentences handed out in this country are a joke. It is possibly the one thing that I agree with, with the USA. This boy should never be let loose on society and his parents should be held accountable too.

What do you mean by 'puddle drinker'? Do you honestly mean that if your 13 yo child was out with friends and got stabbed to death, your first thought would be about the childhood and the welfare of her killer?

I agree. I understand why certain people's access to legal aid leaves a sour taste, but the fact is that sometimes, people are accused of crimes they haven't committed and some of them won't be able to access legal representation. Being able to have a fair trial has to apply to everyone, even people whose crimes make our blood boil.

Do you honestly mean that if your 13 yo child was out with friends and got stabbed to death, your first thought would be about the childhood and the welfare of her killer?

No, of course not. But that's why we have a criminal justice system and not vigilantism.

There will be people inside when he transfers to an adult unit that don't much like kiddy killers. He's also a cocky little shit with an IQ similar to roadkill. Unlikely he will last long to be honest, OP.

And everyone in Liverpool knows the scrote's name.

Them also being victims of crime and abuse doesn't suddenly mean they're no longer a threat to society after serving half a lenient sentence. If anything it means they are inherently more dangerous, sociopathic damaged and broken, and now have more criminal contacts.

They are almost impossible to rehabilitate, will always reoffend, normally in increasing severity.

In some instances permanent exclusion from society is what's best for society. The individual is no longer relevant to it's function.

Yes to parents. At the moment under 16s can do anything and the parents are not held accountable.
Pretty obvious that the burgers killers parents should have been in the Dock too.

How can it be nothing to do with them when their 10 Yr old kill?
Do they also carry on raising their other children?

There is clearly a grey area in many, many cases. Only the most sheltered of people could think otherwise. You defend yourself in an assault, but go a bit over the top? Clearly a grey area as you need to defend yourself but could easily find yourself guilty of a serious criminal offence. That's just one of many examples of why it's never just black & white

As a victim of severe crime, I totally disagree with you.

The UK justice system actually is pretty good overall. That doesn't mean there are not misjustices, but it's basis it decent.

Re sentencing, prison is in the UK meant mainly for rehabilitation purposes, and protecting the public, not punishment or retribution. I am glad of that. I would NOT want to see a US style justfice/ prison policy here.

The perpetrator was a minor. His sentence was issued on that basis. In my view, rightly so from a policy perspective. We don't trial children as adults. Also, as others have pointed it out, it's a minimum sentence. He will be assessed to determine whether he poses danger to the public before his release, and in reality he will likely be under some kind of supervision for the rest of his life.

But he will be a relatively young man when he's released, free to enjoy life with a lot of tax-payer support.

Believed be the victim criminal exploitation

ghosty, sorry, I don’t understand this sentence. Has the murderer had criminal exploitation?

How grim, his father is in prison for assaulting his mother. He has a previous conviction for assaulting a policewoman or a community support officer.

He went to a special school!

Mother obvs unable to control or discipline him.