MIL/ PIL and grandkids - how much involvement/ interest is appropriate without overstepping?

[ThisMuch]

Hi all, just looking forward to your take on this matter. In your experience, what is too much? What kind of behaviour from MIL/FIL justifies DIL's/ DS's annoyance or causes them to withdraw (particularly DIL)? How to offer support without appearing overbearing? This could be aplicable for the mother's parents as well in some cases, of course.

Context: GP want to spend as much time with GC and have as much involvement in DS's life as possible. This can be too much for a couple that wants independence and has different priorities. Sticky subjects are:

• Tending to children's needs during family gatherings (e.g. preparing their meal and making sure they are fed, putting them to sleep, putting sunscreen on them, changing baby's nappies). Is it OK for GP to take on some of these tasks or can that be perceived as interferring?

• Holding babies and physical affection with children. How much is too much?

• Calling to "request" family time - suggesting they visit for holidays, weekends. Organising meetings so that they also visit extended family. Visiting to take children to the park/ cinema

• Calling/ texting to check how doctor appointments/school functions/other events went

Thanks!

Sounds pretty normal to me. I never had that - my pil couldn't care less, a little cuddle then baby back to me (or father) and as kids were expected to play quietly while adults chatted.
My own parents lived in another country but when around came over once a week and we'd go see them for a week on holiday. They babysat a couple times but were well in to their 70s when my kids came along.
I'd have been happy if someone took over looking after my kids on social occasions- sounds great! But if you think it's too much then gently reassert yourself.

Fortunately, my D.I.Ls are grown ups who have never had an issue with any of those things that you mentioned op.

I think we have it pretty much right, but I am the mum not the MIL. We try to have family lunch around once a month. Occasionally we all do something together, but it's not very often as we don't have the energy to do that very often, but the occasional picnic, visit to the theatre, walk in the woods etc. We have the GCs to stay overnight about once a month - originally at their Mums request (the first couple of times) but now I just ask her whether the children would like to come and stay. When they were tiny I would ask whether she wanted help re: feeding or nappy changing and she usually did. Tiny babies were offered to me to hold usually and given back when asked or before. I looked after the eldest for half a day a week for the first couple of years to save on childcare when my daughter went back to work. She asks me for babysitting occasionally and I have a standing commitment to have the children for 2 days every half term as her annual leave doesn't cover all the school holidays. Basically she trusts me to look after her children in the same way that she does, and when they are with me I treat them as my own. Bedtimes are the same as at home. If anything I am a little more strict than she is but she doesn't mind. Cuddles are up to the children - they frequently ask for cuddles but I don't demand them. I do ask for a kiss hello or goodbye if one isn't offered, but it usually isn't offered because they are distracted rather than because they don't want to, and I never force it. If they don't want to then that is that. We have an excellent relationship with the children and they take us for granted in very much the same way as they do their parents. I think my daughter always assumed that I would help out and I would be close to her children. if anything I think she would like me to do more with them but neither of us are very healthy and we just don't have the energy!
The difficulties arise when there are different expectations I think. I don't understand why a mother would feel it necessary to be with their child all the time and wouldn't want to allow the GPs to build that close relationship, but I do understand and accept that some people feel that way.

Oh - and further to my previous (very long) post. If I am told about something that is happening with my grandchild I think my daughter would be quite annoyed if I didn't care enough to ask how it went! If I'm not told and find out in another way then I wouldn't ask, but I might steer the conversation in such a way that would make it easy for her to update me - if she wanted to.

I find my PIL (who are fussy but have a lot of other interests) pretty easy to deal with.

Found it harder with my parents, who have always been very hands off, but the moment I had my first DC they were all over us like a rash, kept talking about when DC would be old enough to stay with them (in another country - flying alone), took DC off my DH and out for a walk, not saying where they were going or for how long, the moment I stepped in the shower when they came to visit the first time after DC was born. Messaged me when pregnant every day with a new baby name, most of which had a link to the country they live in (and I didn't grow up in). Have had to redraw boundaries with them and it is pretty good now, I would say. Try to be forgiving (they are over excited and anxious about their relationship with DC) but firm - never let them do something that really concerns you to keep the peace, as resentment will eat away at you; give away some easy wins early. Saying no gets more respect if done sparingly, fairly and kindly.

If you are the GP, OP, you seem perhaps a bit much. Some GPs naturally have this relationship with GC because they naturally had a very close relationship with their DC that was based on mutual understanding and good boundaries (not being enmeshed and codependent - sons who are "close" to their mothers because their mothers do everything for them and they are too lazy to draw boundaries and be a grown up are not "close" to their mothers, they are just lazy). You can't force this. Follow the parents' lead, be useful. By the time you get a second GC, you'll probably be given more leeway than with the first - you'll be trusted and parents will have their hands full. Play a long game, rather than focusing on trying to maximise what you "should" have from the outset.

Totally dependent on existing relationship between couple and the GPs I think, and also how the parents have found parenthood. Me and DH have struggled and my parents have been as involved as it's possible to be. We've been enormously grateful. MIL is another story and the contrast is really upsetting for my DH.

My parents are no longer around, my MIL is, though quite elderly. My children are teenagers now. I consider us a bog standard family. I’ve had to grit my teeth a few times with MIL, but I guess that’s normal?

but the stuff in the OP? All perfectly fine and just happened organically, you know? Like at a family gathering for example…someone or other would pick up a random baby (I had 3 in 18 months) if I was busy, or take them off me if I was trying to eat. I guess plenty of nappies were changed if I was otherwise occupied. They often chased a random toddler to replace a sun hat. I assume sunscreen was applied on occasion, or a jumper wrestled on when it got cold.

No specific requests were made to see the kids as they were seen often enough. When we lived overseas they would visit, and stay. I’m not crazy about close quarters with my MIL but id never have dreamed of not inviting her.

there were no health issues with the kids, but if there were of course id have kept them informed. I think all of the above is quite normal, in a normal family where everyone respects boundaries, and parents remember that grandparents are batshit crazy in love with their grandkids and mean well.

I did pay for childcare through, but mum was a godsend on the days where one of them had a temperature and I couldn’t drop them off at childcare but had to work.

Well heaven forfend that a grandparent get anything out of the relationship.

I don't think anyone's saying that grandparents shouldn't get anything from the relationship, just that it changes the answers. E.g. cuddles when requested from kid? Fab. Cuddles when grandma wants one but kid has said no? Not so much.

It all depends on how the child’s parents feel and their relationship with the ILs/their parents. If the child’s parents are fine with something, great. If they feel it’s too much or overstepping then you’re going to have problems. Just because something is fine by me or another poster doesn’t mean it’s fine for the child’s parents.

As pp said it depends on the relationship?

I would have happily let dm do all those things but she came from a loving kind place.

Unfortunately mil comes from a "your not doing it right place" so trying to include her has been extremely hard.

If dm.had over stepped or did something I would have very easily been able to say and she would have accepted!

With mil,I couldn't even let her know dd asthma syntpmms because " she's brought up 3 dc and they are alive and well ".

Not a day goes by when I don't miss my lovely MIL. Her way of doing things had changed by the time DS came along but she was incredibly respectful of the way I did things, and supportive of it. She saw her role as a grandmother as first an foremost a support to her grandchild's parents - in the way we wanted/needed, not in the way she thought we should do things. She was incredibly proud of my mothering, showed it and I bloody love her for that.

If I put his routine up on the fridge, she followed it to a tee, or checked when she wasn't sure. She didn't try to take the baby off me, or try to angle for time alone with him - she loved to see us all coming and I never felt any less welcome than DS. Not once.

When we said we weren't doing the usual Christmas going to hers now we had DS and wanted to start our own family Christmas traditions beginning with staying at home for Christmas, she was supportive but she must have been feeling sad a little I'm sure.

When DS was about 6 months old, DP was cajoling me to go to the pub with the rest of them. I didn't know if I was ready to leave DS, and she was the only one in the room who told me it was ok to not be ready to leave the baby and that they could all wait until I was ready. (I did go, she babysat and didn't roll her eyes when I insisted on driving in case I needed to pop home to check )

To give you an example, she bottle fed all of hers - just the way it was done in her location at that time. I exclusively breastfed, but she was supportive even though it was outside of her experience or knowledge. I mentioned in passing that breastfeeding is thirsty work and any time I visited and needed to BF, she would always put a glass of water within arms reach for me when I was BFing, and I just thought that was so thoughtful.

She wouldn't have been keen on the rocker t-shirts we put DS in, never would have said anything about what he wore. And when she would buy baby clothes, she used to quickly text DP before buying. My DM on the other hand would buy expensive, uncomfortable shirts, waistcoats and dicky bows for DS - a pointed dig at what she thought he should be wearing.

She did feed him more chocolate than he should have had. But because she did all the really supportive stuff, I could easily let the excess treats slide.

That's so endearing. Thanks for sharing!

I think you really just have to be led by the parents. Offer loads, but don't interfere. Make an effort to get to know how the parents parent. communication is key!

I'm both relatively laid back (so hapyp for people to take over) and have a good relationship with both sets of grandparents, so happy to speak up if I don't like what they are doing/ ask for help if needed.

Sounds like my lovely late MiL. We loved her so much.

For me- I found it extremely difficult.

I'm a very independent person and my partner is very much a mummy's boy. Our house sale was delayed and therefore we lived with his parents for the first few months when my DS was born.

For me- I'm used to living alone (lived in a flat alone prior to this), whereas DP had spent much longer at his parents. They also have another GC who they are pretty much second parents to sue to a tricky divorce.

This made it difficult for me as I didn't want help. I still don't. I'm strong and independent, and to be honest find it very irritating. However DP had his mum help him change nappies for the first few days which I found absolutely ridiculous.

I think it's down to the individuals and how much help they want. I think it's very easy to overstep boundaries- and you must remember a new mothers maternal instincts are very raw and different for every person.

There are so many threads about ILs overstepping the mark, there ought to be an instruction guide.

1. Parents have final say and absolute veto. It is their child.


2. GPs offer only the level of help they are happy to give.


3. Parents thank gps, accept the help they would like, and buy occasional thank you gift.


4. Neither assumes they are entitled to more.

My dm infuriated my dsis by intentionally feeding dgcs sweets because 'poor darlings were deprived' The row went on for years. It was exhausting.

Thanks so much everyone for taking the time to reply. Even if I can't reply to all of you, I have read every single one of your messages carefully, trying to understand the sentiment and arguments.

I hope more posters feel encouraged to share their perspective. I am finding it hard to discuss this with people in my social circle who have as much as an opinion on this topic (they don't have children or grandchildren), so trying to gauge what is reasonable and appropriate has been hard.

For those who asked, I am the DIL. PIL are nice people. But, as another poster already suggested, helping is often about their need to be useful rather than about making our lives easier.

Some of you might probably argue that I can't possibly know that—I do, because their offers to help are constant and if refused, (my MIL particularly) will either not say anything but look clearly disappointed or insist "but I want to do it/ I want the baby to have something from me". Then they bring it up again and again.

For example, they will offer to buy something functional for DC and we say we don't need anything, we've got it sorted thank you. Both PIL will then start listing the kinds of things they would be willing to buy (what about this? And that?). "No, thanks/ please let me check if we have one at home first." Then everytime we visit they keep bringing it up: "We'd like to buy this and that." We can have this same conversation with both PIL 10 times easily. It's draining.

My parents are very laid back on the contrary. I never thought I would feel smothered by someone offering their help to me—after all, it is a very kind gesture, right? Initially I was thrilled that they were so helpful all the time. But now I feel as if I'm expected to accept their proposal, otherwise I am perceived as hostile and it's not a nice feeling. In other words, they feel entitled to help/ participate, so "I can hold the baby while you eat" can only be met with the reply "OK, thank you", even if I want to hold my baby for whatever reason or simply don't want help.

In my opinion, if they really cared about being helpful, they would listen to us when we express our needs, and I would be more receptive to their help.

In addition to all this, it feels like their focus on us is very intense from the minute we arrive. They hover over us while interacting with the baby all the time, watching our every move and making remarks all along.

They sound overbearing and exhausting. Smothering.

It sounds like you're trying to be respectful of their good intentions They do not sound very respectful of your opinions and needs.

Good GP are kind and loving to their children and gc. They also respect that new parents are learning, doing things their own way and have the final say.

I saw something a few weeks back for GPs who have no boundaries:

Do you love your grandchild?
Do you want a relationship with them?
Do what you're fucking told.

Obviously this doesn't apply to those who are more Joe Root than Phil Tufnell as far as boundaries go, but it does for those who just want to suffocate you and assume they know best because their own child didn't die under their care.

I found my in-laws very difficult particularly mil, where FIL used to reign her at times. My mil had no boundaries and wouldn't take "no" for an answer let alone hints. She would take the baby out of the cot while I was asleep, try to change nappies despite not needing it which lead to a crying ds for no reason, take the baby out for a walk when I'm in the shower, try to feed baby despite saying no dc wouldn't eat that, try to feed dc a creamy pudding that's been sat out in the sun for hours despite saying no. Dc would happily lie in his pushchair playing with his toy all content and the only time I would be able to get a fork of food in my mouth in a restaurant where she would the. squeeze his leg and cue crying despite the amount of times everyone including FIL saying don't even make an eye contact and just leave the baby alone now we are sitting and eating in peace. She comes from a Mediterranean country and things like this seem normal but to me it isn't. I had a DH problem who thought it was normal and we nearly ended our marriage but now I have minimal contact with her. I don't go on holidays with them, I don't ring her, I avoid spending time with her. She irritates me and has taught me how to not be like her when I have gc. Dh tells her to back off and I left dc with DH and the in-laws many times alone and it's then after all the arguments, DH saw what I was trying to say and how her being useful is actually being overbearing and causing inconvenience when DH had to soothe dc many times with her overbearing behaviour.

Another experience of overbearing behaviour but also MIL from Mediterranean country. So perhaps cultural? Not giving baby when they cried, snatching baby from other people, lots of wounded expressions when politely asked to give the baby some space/told they can’t sleep on our living room floor a few days before my due date…and so on. Taking newborn to other rooms, sitting with their backs to me just whispering to each other while fussing the baby. Just really over the top behaviour with no sensitivity.

Huge breakdown in communication happened and they missed out on my children’s babyhood as a result. DH had to have a big shift in his relationship with them. They’re now more involved and it’s easier now that children are older and can assert themselves. I feel I’m able to relax more but I still find it unbearable being with them.

I think when my little one was tiny, I struggled to be away from them.
But now they are 18months - I encourage all sets of grandparents to do everything suggested in your list. I get annoyed that it's us making the effort to arrange to see them and they don't initiate it.
And I see it as a break from nappies / feeding etc.
However as they are now a toddler, they decide how much they want to be cuddled etc 🤣 and they are strong willed!

i have a fantastic DIL& SON but i would never interfere with there parenting unless asked, she already had a child when i met her, they have sinced had a son, he is non verbal autistic, i have babysat at there house only because i offered to do this anytime it was needed, we have all been on holiday a few times and i have offered to change nappy, get him dressed or make him food if mum is busy, he was 2 months old when i first saw him as he was in hospital and i was recovering from bowel cancer, she gave him to me to hold and then lay him on the settee so i could still see him. it is not my place to arrange outings or to ask how they got on at the gp or hospital, i have known other GP usually MIL who try to take over and it causes problems with the DIL, try the do you want me to or the is it okay don't just assume. i have 2 brilliant GS and the older one knows he can face time or call me anytime.

@ThisMuch
You should take them up on their kind offer, ask for a new ride on lawnmower, a new set of delph for your kitchen, an 88" smart tv for the babies room.
Jokes asid maybe they could open a bank account for dc and put money aside for college fund/ house deposit/ call i whatever you like. That would help to make them feel involved with dcs future in a practical way.