Tax childless adults

[Acidburn]

Hi all

Just saw the below article on LBC news:

www.lbc.co.uk/news/childless-tax-birthrate-uk-cost-of-living-paul-morland/

AIBU to think that this insane?

While I know I've been as vociferous as anyone in decrying this bloody awful suggestion, surely the conversation we should be having is how to get over this "hump" when we'll have more older people than younger people, until it corrects itself. It'll take a while.

Decreasing numbers of people on the planet can oy be a good thing in the long run.

Exactly.

It's not as though every birth results in a productive citizen, either. Just look at all the useless losers out there burdening the rest of us with their keep, their crimes, their deadbeat parenting, and so on.

Would smug parents like it if we charged them more or docked their pensions when their offspring turn out to be useless drains on society?

I don’t disagree but in our society it costs money to exist so there are always going to be conversations about how this is funded and what the budget sheet looks like.

I also don’t think it’s possible for someone to exist without ever paying any tax at all in the UK. Not once you start taking things like VAT and inheritance taxes into account.

What bloody services?

The 'schools' that are actually portacabins because the school hasn't been rebuilt for the huge amount of houses built in the area?

The schools with mostly new teachers in because the councils can't be arsed paying for experienced teachers so prefer to use the ones fresh out of uni?

The schools that have asbestos in the roof with gaping holes into classrooms that leak during rain as well?

The maternity care that doesn't even exist in certain hospitals (that used to until the council stopped that) and you have to travel for over an hour by ambulance to the nearest one?

Utterly ridiculous idea. Make child care cheaper. This will go a long way to helping.

Seems counterproductive. I had to save up to cover costs during maternity leave, paying extra tax would have made that more difficult potentially meaning I might have chosen to not have a child, or may have delayed it to the point it was more difficult with the associated increase in risks, which apart from the emotional/physical implications for me also carries a cost for the NHS.

We do need to consider what we do about our ageing population in the light of reduced birth rates in the UK. This has been known about for years but very little has been done because of political short-termism.

I'm honestly not sure what your issue is.

If you honestly think fertility isn't in decline by mid 40s - well good luck with that.

ONS has as a cohort women over 45 as completed childbearing years - I do wonder if that will change with time but numbers of pg beyond that must be so low as not be statically significant currently.

My original point was the assumption women just needed to be educated out of their “silliness” in delaying motherhood which completely and conveniently ignores economic and structural factors that frequently dictate or very least influence that decision and assumes women aren't already aware of their biological which IME isn't true.

Perhaps this “education” was directed at men for once -as IME they aren’t as educated about this or the added risks that come with older sperm production perhaps that might have more impact.

As we still live in a mainly patriarchal society I would have though greater understanding in men around fertility might actually lead to at least attempts to understand structural pressures more - rather than default to "blaming" women.

I became infertile after a cancer scare and life-saving surgery at 32 years old. I have no children and my entire future was wiped out overnight. I'm a single person and a higher rate taxpayer, have been for years. I've never taken and will never take maternity leave, and I'm single so can't afford to go part time. I already pay more into the pot than many parents do. The idea that I should be paying even more on top because parents have made their "contribution" and my role is to finance them, is disgusting.

The answer to this is legalising voluntary euthanasia. I do not want to spend 20 years in a care home. I want control over the end of my life. Bonus - no poor person has to have children for my benefit, as apparently all parents are now doing rather than because they do whatever they want.

Honestly, childless people are second class citizens in this country and every year I get closer to emigrating.

Totally agree!

No sure any of that is the fault of people without children though

But it is the fault of those in power who would be the ones taxing us. They tax us more every year for what? Not like they are using the money well currently.

So, some women are being manoeuvred into aborting their potential third child because of the two child benefit policy on the one hand and here they are floating the idea that childless adults should be punished taxed for their lack of procreation?

Makes sense 🙄

Ditto. Not had Xmas off or leave during July in 7 years as mums (it's always mums) go into uproar every time a rota is suggested. The mums I work with are constantly making comments about how they don't understand how women can be so cold as to not have kids, how their lives will never be complete without knowing that special kind of love, and how they're glad they have something in their lives other than work and a reason to keep their hours at a manageable level.

Ducksinthebath

Arguably those without children are already paying for so many services they don’t use (maternity care, schools, nursery hours) that this really does add insult to injury.

Schools? Are you serious? Are people really that stupid that they don't understand that everyone benefits from having an educated population, not just people with children.

I speak as someone with no children, but even I can understand that other people's children grow up to be my GP or a nurse or an engineer that massively benefits everyone in society.

Such a lazy thing to say.

I became infertile after a cancer scare and life-saving surgery at 32 years old. I have no children and my entire future was wiped out overnight. I'm a single person and a higher rate taxpayer, have been for years. I've never taken and will never take maternity leave, and I'm single so can't afford to go part time. I already pay more into the pot than many parents do. The idea that I should be paying even more on top because parents have made their "contribution" and my role is to finance them, is disgusting.

Absolutely @rainbowmilk And I'm so sorry for your situation - it is REALLY tough, in large part because of the kind of thinking demonstrated by the article in the opening post, and some of the ideas of some of the posters in this thread.

But it DOES get better - honestly it does. However, there are a lot of unthinking ignorant people in this world, who do treat childless women as some sort of freak. It's really hard to take, year in, year out.

I now get quite confrontational about it - there's so much evidence that people with more than 1 child in the west use up way more resources (of everything) than is their fair share. Someone with 3 children once tried to chide me about flying. I put her straight on that!

It's not as though every birth results in a productive citizen, either. Just look at all the useless losers out there burdening the rest of us with their keep, their crimes, their deadbeat parenting, and so on.

Surely this is true for adults who don't have dc too though.

I'm truly glad I have never known or worked with people like that.

It's tough enough being infertile as it is.

The pain is awful at the time, but it does get better.

At least they aren't making more tossers tho

Out of interest what would you like the replacement rate to be?

I don't understand this question? The replacement rate is what it is eg 2.1. Do you mean what I would like the birth rate to be? I haven't argued the birth rate should be higher although I think they should be more support as I don't believe only rich people should reproduce. My annoyance is the lack of planning eg we need to be paying more tax now (everyone) & or increase immigration. The gov should have been planning it for it yesterday instead we are getting the usual distraction.

The mums I work with are constantly making comments about how they don't understand how women can be so cold as to not have kids, how their lives will never be complete without knowing that special kind of love, and how they're glad they have something in their lives other than work and a reason to keep their hours at a manageable level

They sound batshit!

Arguably people having kids (especially women) tend to use social services more over their lifetime. When you consider that only individuals who earn over £130k are net tax contributers in the UK most families with kids who earn less (and the vast majority earn less) are tax drains.

I think that’s why LBC chose this debate because it’s clickbait and the facts will actually support that childless people tend to be net contributers.

You can’t eat emotions of ‘collective value’. They won’t fill your stomach or provide shelter. Nice, warm, fuzzy ideas like these don’t solve real problems in the real world. All output has financial value, otherwise society ceases to function.

Replacement rates would be higher in high-income families and lower in low-income ones if the government had their say. Currently it’s the opposite.

We could of course make it easier for people from other countries to take up employment in the UK!

I love how "they are coming here and stealing our jobs" is changing to "please come in here and steal some jobs"