Tax childless adults

[Acidburn]

Hi all

Just saw the below article on LBC news:

www.lbc.co.uk/news/childless-tax-birthrate-uk-cost-of-living-paul-morland/

AIBU to think that this insane?

I remember Singapore had something similar- tax breaks for university educated under 25s who would get tax breaks. A form of social engineering. I don't think we want to advocate going down that route surely.

Sadly those who are supporting this hideous idea are assuming their offspring will be fully contributing members of society when the reality is many will be relying on benefits and not paying a great deal of tax at all.

I don't disagree with all the points raised. However as a childless person, surely I'm already subsidising people with children. I'm due a discount surely?

There is zero shortage of humans on this poor burning planet!!!

Immigration will solve any future labor/consumer deficits. We don't need to rob some citizens to fund domestic reproduction by others.

The idea is galling.

At the moment it’s those having children who are overwhelmingly funding the existence of the next generation even though we all benefit from it.

Aren't those who don't have children funding a lot of services for other people's children?

If you suggest "shall we tax childless people" and frame it like that, very few people would support the idea.

If you suggest giving people who have had children generous tax credits to help compensation for the costs of raising children (and foregone career opportunities), a lot more people say they are OK with that.

Yet any kind of benefits or tax credits for parents are likely to be paid for by higher taxes by everyone else--ie, those who have never had children. It amounts to something that is basically very much like a tax on childlessness, it's just phrased in a less provocative manner.

Most countries will probably end up doing some version of this, IMO. They will find "nice" ways to frame it, rather than saying "Childless tax," but it will effectively amount to the same kind of thing.

I'm not particular pro or anti immigration, but fertility rates are falling really sharply all over the world, including the countries where many immigrants might traditionally have come from. Already, countries like Mexico, the Philippines and India are probably just slightly below replacement rate. Much of Latin America and Asia fell below replacement quite a while ago. Fertility has fallen more slowly only in sub Saharan Africa, but the % of sub Saharan Africans with the sort of skills we need in a modern developed country isn't very high (and those sub Saharan Africans who are skilled will be badly needed in their own countries). There is no easy solution to all this.

I'm not sure many people realise the true extent of world wide population collapse. It has been predicted for decades that the population would likely peak towards 11 billion, then dramatically fall back to lower level.
Some how the climate loons keep pushing their Malthusian nonsense, despite the fact there are clear signs we may have already peaked in population terms. This is global issue, and not one solved by importing low skill migrants. Just look at China, as they are on course to lose a third of their population in the coming decades.
Oh, and add into this the perpetually falling fertility rates of men. Something which my biology teacher was warning about 25 years ago, and which the cause hasn't been proved as far as I know.

A lot of women don't choose to have children later. It's life that gets in the way or men that are happy to wait as their fertility isn't as affected.

OP it's an appalling thought. Child free people are already subsidising those with children as they're less likely to take so much out of the pot in services like healthcare, schooling etc. Obviously, eventually those children will contribute but that's many years later.

@Notlabeled I'm actually surprised about how strong the belief is that the world is going to hell because of too many babies. But then I think of Brexit & I guess once people believe something to be true it must be true.

I guess once people believe something to be true it must be true.

this applies to everyone’s posts - but some just go for the superior line with some sneeriness too unfortunately

I have dc but this is very off. People without dc already contribute financially often for things they don’t use

Immigration won’t solve our labour shortages as long as idiots vote to end free movement of people. Brexit has removed this option. We have farmers on the verge of shutting their farms for good because they don’t have the staff.

this applies to everyone’s posts - but some just go for the superior line with some sneeriness too unfortunately

That doesn't even make sense because somethings will be true & somethings won't be. IE how some people believe being in the EU was the cause of all our troubles or that Brexit is not having an impact on the economy or even that discussing immigration negatives equals you must be a racist. Or that the UKs population is growing because people are having loads of dc, the birth rate tell us this is not true.
It's not superior or sneery to acknowledge that but the about sums up the level of debate we can have these days 😆

I agree it’s pretty poor

if you have a point just make it without the sneer, chances are you don’t possess the only intellect on a thread

re Brexit yes it’s had an impact, but other countries are experiencing shortages which you’d see if you did a quick Google

Plus your original point was declining numbers would want to move to the U.K. which is untrue. It’s attractive for many reasons and despite systems put in place that desire will still be there. And probably increase due to climate issues

if you have a point just make it without the sneer, chances are you don’t possess the only intellect on a thread

I don't see what part of my posts have been sneery but as I said you can interpret that as you want. And I would never assume I'm the only one with intellect.

re Brexit yes it’s had an impact, but other countries are experiencing shortages which you’d see if you did a quick Google

But I've not said that other countries aren't experiencing economic issue have I? That doesn't negate the fact ours are been made worse by Brexit. My point was plenty refuse to acknowledge Brexit has had an impact.

Plus your original point was declining numbers would want to move to the U.K. which is untrue. It’s attractive for many reasons and despite systems put in place that desire will still be there. And probably increase due to climate issues

I said that I don't think we are now as attractive to immigrants, particularly to the ones we want. I'm also not convinced climate refugees are going to solve our ageing population problems particularly without causing other issues. That is my opinion & I may be wrong.

This is really insensitive.

Some people make a career out of having children. Having the taxpayer foot the bill always and forever. Living mostly carefree, irresponsible lives, going from one personal dram to another. Producing a generation of children with no prospects of their own either. This is the stupidest way to perpetuate that cycle.

Ok I appreciate the post because I actually do want to hear why a couple of posters think what they do about numbers of next generation but if it’s just you’re all too dumb to get it then I don’t hear the reasons.

I do think we are attractive even to the ones we want but I guess we’ll see with numbers and if various visas are fulfilled - eg post graduate and skills based

Also countries that will face climate difficulties will include these people

It’s not going to be easy I don’t think, I imagine incredible hardship for those who don’t meet have the same options, some difficulty here as the age bulge lives through here so it’ll be messy. Plus it’s hard to visualise completely so always up for other views

If you suggest giving people who have had children generous tax credits to help compensation for the costs of raising children (and foregone career opportunities), a lot more people say they are OK with that.

Areyou going to give the childless extra credit when they get older then due to paying extra into the system all their working life that they aren't going to use aswell as paying into the more 'generous' system you want.

I mean fair is fair and all that.

I am a mum and I agree with you.

Childless people are paying the same taxes as the rest of us yet benefit less - that's just logic. They aren't getting access to free schooling, healthcare and other services for their children. It is right that they will usually be able to earn more and so pay more tax. And similarly will have more disposable income usually so contribute more to the economy also.

Yes you will get people who work full time, and have kids, and don't qualify for things like child benefit etc but also pay for private schooling etc so get less out of the pot despite having kids... but a lot of people with kids will be taking much more out than they put in.

Childless people are expected to relent on things like holiday requests at work to allow people with kids the convenience of certain time off. Society does treat women without kids as though they have failed to fulfil their destiny as women (I had IVF for first child so have experienced the comments from people about how I'm career driven, not maternal etc because I couldn't have children yet this has now flipped and I'm suddenly seen as maternal and motherly despite being the same person I was before and having the same ideas and approach to childcare as before).

I also think it is arrogant for people with kids to bang on about how they are contributing more to society because of having kids as though they are completely and utterly responsible for their kids achievements. My DHs mother was a neglectful alcoholic who abused him. He overcame this to get a great job, learn himself how to be a kind and considerate person, and contributes a lot of tax etc. She shouldn't take the credit for that - if he had turned out like her he wouldn't be contributing much at all. It's relatively easy to be a mum if everything works fertility wise but parenting well is another story.

The point is yes we need a certain number of kids but parents shouldn't feel they can be on their high horse then about contributing to society and childless people shouldn't be considered lesser or taxed for being childless.

Ok I appreciate the post because I actually do want to hear why a couple of posters think what they do about numbers of next generation but if it’s just you’re all too dumb to get it then I don’t hear the reasons.

But where have I said anyone is too dumb to get it? I'm genuinely surprised people think population growth particularly in the west is caused by people having too many babies. And of course for the gov to plan anything & make policies people need to be aware of the issue. The alternative is stupid divisive suggestions like the ones in the OP which results in arguments. And as I said upthread I'm concerned about the issue of declining birth rates being pushed onto women.

I’m confused at the notion that childless people benefit less from taxes because they don’t have kids needing school. Parents aren’t paying for their children’s education via tax; their taxes surely cover (paying back) their own education?

Everyone has a lifetime money pot that (in theory) they put into via tax, and take out via education and healthcare. It just so happens that the two come at different times (we take out a lot under the age of 18 and over the age of 65, but we put the bulk in between those two ages).

No it’s not as rates here show decline but is that something to overturn?

Various jobs will decrease, people from other countries will want to move more and skills are there too

Out of interest what would you like the replacement rate to be?

So when do those with DC ever payback their own education then?

When they’re earning money and paying tax.

This thread is disturbing, the idea the contribution a human makes is only measurable by tax in vs tax out is clearly an incorrect way of viewing things. A person has value as a person. Society has collective value. I am enriched by both money and human happiness.

A person can contribute to society without ever paying tax. Clearly economically many have to pay tax, but it is not correct to measure a single human by money in money out.