To find it utterly chilling that Tory MP Danny Kruger has said that he doesn’t believe women should have absolute right of bodily autonomy?

[AngeloMysterioso]

During a House of Commons debate yesterday Danny Kruger, MP for Devizes said-

“I recognise the degree of distress and concern felt by many members in the house on the supreme courts decision… I probably disagree with most members who’ve spoken so far about this question.

“They think that women have an absolute right to bodily autonomy in this matter, whereas I think that in the case of abortion, that right is qualified by the fact that another body is involved.

“But we can disagree on that question, and I offer to other members who are trying to talk me down, that this is a proper topic for political debate, and my point to the front bench, is I don’t understand why we are lecturing the United States on a judgement to return the power of decision over this political question to the states, to democratic decision makers, rather than leaving it in the hands of the courts.”

(underlining is my own emphasis)

Telegraph - Women do not have ‘absolute right of bodily autonomy’, says Tory MP Danny Kruger

Daily Mail - Prue Leith's religious Tory MP son Danny Kruger says he doesn't agree that 'women have an absolute right to bodily autonomy' in debate over US abortion ban - and British MPs should not 'lecture' US over their democratic process

Evening Standard - “Women ‘don’t have an absolute right to bodily autonomy’, says Tory MP Danny Kruger”

Spectator- “In defence of Danny Kruger”

AIBU to think this is rather terrifying, in light of what’s just taken place in the US and the fact that, with BJ’s Tory leadership hanging in the balance there are rabid pro-lifers like Jacob Rees Mogg ready to take his place?

@SexyLittleNosferatu

Smoking and drinking are recreational activities not needed for day to day life and women have the absolute ability to live without them for 9 months in order to minimise risk to their baby or any harm that using them in excess will lead to.

The other things you have mentioned are daily necessity activities that carry a small risk but on the whole, part-taking in them - in excess even - will not definitely inevitably lead to any actual harm.

Whether you like it or not a pregnant woman has a human inside her. So yes she has other people to think about during such a time.

If you had a friend, 8 months pregnant who was binge drinking, smoking in excess and perhaps dabbling in some recreational drugs you'd support her actions? "You do you! You're not an incubator! Live your best life!"

A week ago there was a vote to allow the U.K. to directly commission abortion services in Northern Ireland. This was necessary because even though the 2019 Westminster vote brought abortion law in Northern Ireland into line with that in the rest of the U.K., the DUP has blocked any commission of services that cover all of Northern Ireland.

’Despite progressive legislation, in practice they still face having to continue a pregnancy against their wishes or travelling to England for abortions or taking unregulated abortion pills, Alyson Kilpatrick, chief commissioner of Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, said’

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/04/abortion-services-in-northern-ireland-almost-nonexistent-despite-legalisation

It was passed by 215 votes to 70.

This vote will allow a telemedicine service to be set up for abortions under 12 weeks. Danny Kruger and 69 other MPs opposed it.

It’s not about opposition to late term abortion. People like Danny Kruger are opposed to abortion full stop.

I don't know why anyone is surprised about this. Most men consider women to be "less than". We are viewed as being sub-human.

I don't understand why you're being so patronising. In the 80s when everyone around you smoked, in restaurants, on planes, in cinemas, did you think there'd be a time when it would be illegal for a person to smoke in their own car with a 17yo, even with all the windows open. I never did. Is it a huge leap to follow medical evidence that smoking can damage the foetus and therefore it's made illegal for the duration of the pregnancy? After all, New Zealand is banning smoking completely for the younger generation.

You light up your straw man.

Meanwhile …

Was this meant for me?

The anti-choice crowd all over the world will be emboldened by what happened in the US. It's shit.

Here are some other things women consume which are a risk in pregnancy (and not necessity)

Pate
Runny eggs
unpasturised cheese
Deli meats
Heavily polluted city air

There is also a known risk before pregnancy of not taking folic acid.

Maybe we could introduce a law that controls women’s food, vitamin and air intake? Maybe extend it to all women of childbearing age, just in case??

Also smoking and drinking are/can be addictions and not necessarily easily stopped as soon as you are pregnant. I became accidentally pregnant whilst on medication that is deemed unsuitable for pregnant women. It would have been very dangerous for me to stop it immediately. In fact any conversation with my medical team was always about the balance of risks to me in stopping medication and and danger to the foetus.

And it is a slippery slope of what you start banning.

If you don't agree with Danny Kruger, do you agree with this woman?

That is absolutely VILE...and heartbreaking 💔

The anti choice crowd will also be emboldened by the last two years.

I found it terrifying how quickly we went from personal freedoms / liberties / rights are important to everything is selfish and we have to give up basic rights to protect others' - even strangers - health.

You can't force people out of jobs, ban them from public spaces, stop them from leaving or entering countries etc because they do not want to take a new vaccine with negligible benefits for a virus that was extremely unlikely to harm them AND THEN SAY WITH A STRAIGHT FACE that women should be allowed to terminate another life with zero caveats or restrictions.

The "Majority" virtually handed this to them on a plate. We've already set a precedence that the right to absolute body autonomy does not exist and where it does exist, it is linked to the effects exercising those rights has on others.

I can't believe people didn't see this 2 years ago and that there are still people who refuse to see it even now.

Isn’t the key thing here procuring an abortion?

Eg that a woman who sought to end her own pregnancy by taking drugs she knew could harm the foetus wouldn’t be criminalised? So the state limits access to abortion, it doesn’t limit what a woman can do herself to her own body?

Similar to the fact a 15yo can’t legally buy alcohol but it’s not illegal for them to consume alcohol?

(I don’t know this is right, I’m just trying to understand this)

Well, we've also had the considerable development of human and fundamental rights guaranteeing equality between men and women in all areas, but don't let that stop you comparing it with wearing a seatbelt in a car or smoking on a plane...

You sound very confused. You are equating laws with what a friend might say in passing to another woman socially. Equally of course that friend might keep her nose out of it because she doesn't see herself as a keeper of the strict rules that float around in your head.

@TheScenicWay Well said! 👏

It's disgusting isn't it, but that is, apparently genuinely, the position of some at the extreme end of the pro-choice side in the USA.

If you had a friend, 8 months pregnant who was binge drinking, smoking in excess and perhaps dabbling in some recreational drugs you'd support her actions? "You do you! You're not an incubator! Live your best life!"

I think mostly people would rightly judge a woman in those circumstances. The question is not should we judge that behaviour, but should it be criminalised? And from what I have seen in the US, it is woman who are addicts, who have severe mental health problems or victims of trauma who have been criminalised for causing the death of a foetus - not women who are “living their best life”.

As you well know, it is never prosecuted.

And as you also well know, it is not illegal for women to travel overseas.

You're remarkably keen to make people believe this is already a done deal, aren't you?

What are your thoughts on the following:

(a) Criminalising men for walking out on their children
(b) Criminalising men for not paying child maintenance
(c) Criminalising men for vitiating consent to creating a pregnancy (i.e. lying about their legal status and coercing a woman into becoming pregnant with him on the basis that he will marry her or stay with her
(d) Criminalising men for behaviours that have been shown to damage the quality of their sperm and create a higher risk of birth defects e.g. drinking alcohol, having a high BMI, recreational drugs use, etc..

Please answer each point, individually, in turn. The issues that I have outlined affect far, far more children than does the issue of late term abortion. I can't think why this isn't being debated in parliament, rather than abortion.

^^ Yes and it’s scary. The future is bloody bleak. Small steps, then it’ll be too late.

I don't think that photo is revolting at all. It's making a key political point.

I Trust Women
As Early As Possible, As Late As Necessary

This thread is an illustration of why we need to be mindful of the Overton Window thread. If we make the right to safe legal abortion in the UK a subject up for debate in any way we are putting that right at risk.

Count me in on that hill.

Three posts in. It doesn’t take long for us to find a women to link to or somehow hold responsible for a man’s shitty behaviour does it?

How on earth is it ‘even more horrifying’ who this man’s mother happens to be? Why is she in any way connected to or answerable for what HE has said in his professional capacity?

Crininalising pregnant women for drinking or smoking in pregnancy is surely counter productive? A heavy smoker who falls pregnant, for example, is likely to need help and support to quit and she's less likely to seek this help if she risks sanction. There will always be women who are pregnant in difficult circumstances and who need support.

It's also the principle - a pregnant woman is not an incubator.

It's also a slippery slope. 1 in 4 (or is it even 1 in 3?) pregnancies ends in miscarriage. If we start policing women's activities in pregnancy, do we start prosecuting them for miscarriage (this happens in other countries).

Also a slippery slope - if we accept women being prosecuted for smoking and drinking in pregnancy, what other behaviours do we look at? What about women who play sport or exercise in pregnancy and have an accident?

What about medication? I have a complicated medical history and have been given the go ahead from several of my consultants to take medication in pregnancy my GP wanted to take me off, including pain killers, sulfasalazine and my asthma meds. Some of these medications are because the risk to me of not taking them exceeds the risk to the foetus, should there ever be one. They are not entirely without risk though. I have to take prescription folic acid throughout TTC - childbirth as sulfasalazine raises the risk of neural tube defects. Should I be prosecuted if I have a child with spina bifida?

What about diet? Should women who eat an unhealthy diet in pregnancy be prosecuted? Or women who don't take folic acid? Or follow a diet someone disapproves of - vegetarianism or veganism for example?

Although I fundamentally and totally disagree with his views on abortion I am glad that he was at least open and honest about his views so that we now know what we are up against.

I worry more about politicians that either fudge the issue or make appropriate noises but underneath hold views against a woman's right to decide or against womens rights in general.

Yes.