To ask you not to tolerate the term "pregnant people"

[flashbac]

It might seem harmless and kind but it is not harmless. I'm seeing the term alot at the moment due to the horrid state of affairs across the pond.

Pregnancy, abortion, menstruation, menopause. These are issues that affect women and reasons why men have sought to control us, to control our bodies. We are seen as vessels, chattels, playthings, property, servants, and then, when we can no longer get pregnant, as useless rubbish. All due to our biological function. If you tolerate language change so these things are seen as 'people' rights issues that affect both 'men' and women we lose the truthful and valid argument that bad and oppressive practices, laws, policy decisions etc, e.g. banning of abortion, are rooted in misogyny, which of course they are.

Abortion bans are because of misogyny. Especially in countries where there is no free maternal care, no statutory maternity leave or pay, no shits given about the children once they are born. This is a women's rights issue, a sex based one. And we, as a sex class, must never take any rights we have for granted.

That “observation” you have made is a cognitive , psychological and social process.

What, so if I'd been socialised differently, I would understand my female body parts as something else?

Erm, no.

Tandora thinks acknowledging your sex is gender.

Has anyone actually got a definition of gender which doesn't boil down to "stereotypes"?

Transmen or women who call themselves non binary reasonably may want to get pregnant and to have babies and breastfeed them, and that’s all great.
However, regardless of how ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ or neither they may regard any of those actions (in terms of the ever-changing gender stereotype classification labels), is not really the relevant thing.

Anyone becoming a mother is just like every other woman becoming a mother, and so asking all women to accept new sexist terms for themselves, or taking away other women’s language for motherhood, because you have language preferences of yours own, is just hypocritical. Tolerance works both ways.
Just call yourself whatever label you want, and other women will call themselves whatever label they they want, and then everyone can live in diversity and tolerance.

It’s like religion- it’s everyone’s right to have the freedom to practice your beliefs yourself if you want to, but you can’t also expect everyone else to believe in it too, or try to force them to behave as if they do.
And there are also limits to which the state and other individuals like children of adults with these beliefs should be expected to accept and be part of any harmful acts that are religiously-based or based in a political ideology.

Tandora thinks acknowledging your sex is gender.

That would be terribly problematic for the trans community though, wouldn't it?

Absolutely spot on. To be pregnant, you are using your female anatomy and female physiological processes. Only women and girls can ve female in this way. So you can't have pregnant people.

You say “they know what sex they are” but I’m not sure entirely what you mean. Trans people are aware of their bodies, but they often know themselves to be the opposite sex. There’s a book called whipping girl which is incredibly helpful for elucidating trans experience. It’s author Julia Serano actually rejects the terminology of “gender identity” because she thinks it implies to conscious/ deliberate a process. She refers instead to the concept of “subconscious sex”. As a trans woman her subconscious sex is female.
(The book is also really helpful in elucidating how transphobia is actually rooted in misogyny).

Can I steal this please OP?

Your female body parts would still be your female body parts, but how you “understand” them is absolutely a cognitive, psychological and social process. That’s not to say all those processes themselves can be reduced to “socialisation”, there will be a biological element too.

Agreed. I feel sorry for women. Now we have an extra layer of pressure telling us we are wrong and we aren't allowed to use the terminology that makes us feel better about ourselves.

You've hit the nail on the head, but not in the way you think.

But you are allowed to use whatever terminology to describe yourself! You’re just not allowed to dictate how it applies to others.

Trans"women" aren't affected by these burdens, so they aren't owed a seat at the debating table. Trans"men" are biologically female - and will be all too aware that one cannot opt out of the biological realities of womanhood.

Your female body parts would still be your female body parts, but how you “understand” them is absolutely a cognitive, psychological and social process.

No. How I define my female body parts is scientifically evidenced and clearly classifiable.

How I understand to societal stereotypes about gender is an entirely different process and is driven by societal norms and different depending on the culture, geography and historical period that I live in.

In some countries the right to abortion is based on their sex discrimination statutes, lack of abortion would disproportionately affect women, so under sex discrimination law, it is legal.

But if men can get pregnant, then abortion affects everyone, and there is no argument under sex discrimination.

This is why language matters. This is why we need to fight tooth and nail to retain the ability to organise as a sex class, to use the word woman unashamedly and without qualification.

When we are fighting for things as critical as abortion rights, my view is that personal gender identity should play second fiddle to maintaining the clarity of language and purpose. We are discriminates against because of our sex not gender.

You say “they know what sex they are” but I’m not sure entirely what you mean. Trans people are aware of their bodies, but they often know themselves to be the opposite sex. There’s a book called whipping girl which is incredibly helpful for elucidating trans experience. It’s author Julia Serano actually rejects the terminology of “gender identity” because she thinks it implies to conscious/ deliberate a process. She refers instead to the concept of “subconscious sex”. As a trans woman her subconscious sex is female.

(The book is also really helpful in elucidating how transphobia is actually rooted in misogyny).

Oh, here comes the Queer theory 🙄🚩🚩.

It’s time for the Queer Theory jeopardy video me thinks:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mipq8FjTXrw

Subconscious sex sounds like an awfully useful term.

I wonder why we couldn't apply 'subconscious' to things like race?

But you are allowed to use whatever terminology to describe yourself! You’re just not allowed to dictate how it applies to others.

Women! Pay attention to what you are and aren’t allowed to do.

What does that remind me of? Oh yes, of what women have been told throughout history.

Pure sexism, only this time it’s pretending that it’s progressive.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss…

But you are allowed to use whatever terminology to describe yourself!

Except that you're not allowing women to state that their understanding of what sexy they are comes from their sex characteristics alone.

You cannot "know yourself to be the opposite sex".

That is an absurd nonsense.

Trans women cannot know themselves to be female because they are not female, they are male.

Trans men cannot know themselves to be male because they are not male, they are female.

Why yes I do. I lived with a trans person for 5 years, possibly before some people commenting on this thread were even born. They are one of the best people I have ever met. I have met several others since and would like to think I can count a transman among my friends.

Is there a reason you think women are not allowed to have an opinion on their rights and female language unless they personally know someone trans?

It's the terminology of others forced on to women, that's what this thread is all about, not what we call ourselves. Do you not see that?

Absolutely agree and very well put and argued.

Although I was actually quite shocked at the number of hysterically crying woman in the USA supportive of the abortion ban ruling there. I can't deny I was despairing at a subsection of our sex.

? I don’t understand this? Of course your understanding of what sex you are may come from your sex characteristics- ( although not necessarily so for everyone).

All I said was whilst your body parts are your body parts, how you understand your body parts is a cognitive, psychological and social process. I don’t understand how you can reasonably dispute this.

But people can and do. So rather than dismissing it as absurd nonsense and impossible, maybe you should direct your energies towards trying to understand it?

Ditto chest feeding. And the language isn’t used for everyone, it’s allowing people to have the option of language that’s more inclusive to them if they wish it. I was a pregnant woman, and I breastfed. I have been involved in the care of people who now identify as male and have given birth and chosen to chest feed. It doesn’t take anything away from my experience by allowing them to have theirs.

This is something I'm always interested and want to learn more about. Why would a trans man want to get pregnant and have a baby? If they truly believe they are male surely they don't want to experience the lived experience of a woman?

Please answer factually and informatively because it's an area I genuinely don't understand and want to.

No, they can't and they don't.

Whatever a trans woman believes themselves to be, it has absolutely nothing to do with being female.