Religious pondering Roe v. Wade

[LemonSwan]

So with the news from America being so heavily influenced by religion I have been doing some deep thinking.

So my thinking with some religious framing -

If god knows me, every unspoken word, every thought, every action I will take and the path of my life. And thus for everyone in the world.

Surely god would know in advance when he gives the gift of life to an embryo which would be aborted. So how is it against the will of god IYSWIM. Surely god would just not fertilise that egg if he didn’t wish for the embryo to be aborted.

I don’t want this to descend into pro choice vs. Anti abortion because that’s everywhere right now. This is more about people’s thoughts on the above.

And yes I know not everyone is religious so anything offensive re religion is not really where I am going with this. I am pondering philosophy of religion and insight into thought tracks of why religious people are so anti abortion if they trust in god knowing in advance all that will be.

If anyone wants to muse in with anything insightful I would be really interested.

Your imaginary friend has no baring over my medical requirements.

I'm just going to leave this here because this says everything I want to.

I’m a Christian - not a Calvinist or Methodist or other denominations mentioned here.

God knows what is going to happen to me, before I do it, but there’s something called free choice which gives me the freedom to make the decisions I want to make. God might see my future, but He won’t force me to choose His will - even if that goes against His wishes for my life, or hurts Him.

I’m pro-choice. Because God is pro-choice - He doesn’t force anybody to believe in anything or do anything they don’t want to. The tragedies that we see in this world are a consequence of the state of this planet - there are diseases, genetic conditions and terrible deaths due to miscarriage, accidents, etc. God doesn’t get involved in what happens down here - you can only ask Him to be present in your life, but that doesn’t spare you from suffering.

All the ‘religious’ people campaigning as pro-lifers in the US right now, also encourage you to ‘choose God’s love’ etc. Apparently you’re free to choose that, but not what happens to your body? Makes no sense and contradicts the Bible’s teachings which they claim to follow.

In short, you won’t get a rational answer from anybody who wants to take away free choice from a human being. There is no way they can justify their beliefs rationally.

I don't think the original argument from the OP really holds water - God knows how every life will end, but that doesn't mean he is pleased by the way every life will end. Murder (the totally non-controversially wrong type against born people) is against the Ten Commandments, and God made people that are murdered (e.g. Abel). That doesn't somehow show God approves of murder, any more than the fact foetuses are aborted shows God approves of abortion.

All those talking about the OP and her 'imaginary friend'... I don't get the impression that the OP is religious. She certainly doesn't know much about it!!

OP, I remember covering a biology lesson in a Catholic school (I as also raised Catholic) and the pupils were being taught about conception/cell/sperm/zygotes.

The information they were been given illlustrated that life began at conception from a biological perspective.

I have often thought about this because as a state school they cannot teach anything that doesn’t adhere to good scientific thinking and the curriculum. I clearly remember looking at the resource and wondering about it but didn’t know enough to question it with the science dept.
My point is that if you are taught an idea and science is used to underpin it and you are taught that you have had a good education then you are unlikely to question much of that.

*Biologists - I know my example is vague and I apologise. I saw diagrams and terms I didn’t know so wanted to make sense of it.

Some religions teach that the forces of good and evil are both God and work together to enable free will. This also accounts for the fact that many things are not clearly good or evil and it's overly simplistic to think of it that way.

@AclowncalledAlice

ao a baby that is 8/12 months old in the womb isn’t ‘alive’. They can be seen moving on a scan and kicking the mothers stomach but they are not alive before they have taken a breath.

independently not living perhaps but to say not alive isn’t correct (imv). All respect to the Rabbi but I surprised at this one.

Apologies for poor typing

God doesn't exist and the Bible

To Scuttling Herbert

Can you give the bible reference. Thank you

I believe there was a Plan A, when the world was created by God, and Plan A was free from suffering, natural disasters, illness, fear. God created this world with Plan A in mind in the hope that despite having the choice to live separately from Him, humanity would choose not to.
I don't necessarily believe in the literal Adam and Eve account but it's a good way of explaining how humanity chose to separate from God - thinking we know better. The separation of God and humanity caused huge shockwaves across creation and threw the perfect world off kilter.
The Old Testament is Plan B. God working to bring people back to Him, a 'reset' in the form of the flood, punishments and all sorts.
The New Testament is Plan C. Jesus. Someone to clarify different laws, highlight what's important (love, respect, tolerance, forgiveness) and be God suffering WITH humanity, so we can turn to God/Jesus knowing He knows what suffering is. We don't have to be separate from God any longer because we knows he gets it.
What transcends all of this is that this world isn't "it". We have hope in an after life, which IS still perfect. Jesus opened up the possibility of Heaven to everyone, and while other Christians will disagree, I don't believe at all that atheists/other religions won't get in. The person of Jesus and the unconditional love he demonstrated to all regardless of who they were is enough for me to believe that.

I miscarried in January this year at 8 weeks. It was a missed miscarriage, and so I had to take misoprostol as I was at risk of infection. It was an ordeal I wish nobody had to go through. When we got the certificate of foetal remains from the hospital they wrote Baby Surname on it. Because that foetus wasn't just a clump of cells that could be so easily discarded. If we were still on Plan A, it would have survived and thrived. But the world is broken, and things like chromosomal abnormalities exist and cells stop multiplying and my baby wasn't able to grow. My faith helps me with this, and I trust my baby is with God in Paradise, where one day we will be reconciled. Life is a wonderful gift, but I believe it's the ability for humanity to bring about life that is the real God-given gift. Again, in Plan A, infertility wouldn't be a thing. And yet so sadly here we are.

You can probably guess, I'm pro-life, but a) I'm not against abortion for religious reasons. Having had friends who have had abortions themselves has only made me look at the whole debate from different angles, and b) that's not what you asked, so I'm not looking for a debate as you won't change my mind and I gave up trying to change others minds about 10 years ago.

Hopefully my explanation helps a little from this Christian's perspective.

I utterly despair. It's hardly a wonder we're in such a state with people with your "ponderings" voting.

@buntywindermere

Surely God knew plan a would fail?

Why set it up to fail?

And if the aim is death to get to paradise, surely the more abortions the better?

I thought it was Presbyterians who believe in predestination.

I think tbh the American Christian’s who use their religion to mandate abortion bans are not necessarily aligned with the wider Christian world. For some time it’s been clear that there seems to be a new type of American Christian fundamentalism emerging that doesn’t necessarily fit with Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, etc. I find the American Christian beliefs of the southern churches very extremist. They ignore completely that other religious groups not only allow but in some instances encourage abortion (E.g. Judaism)

Be "pro-life" if you want, just don't try to force it on others.

What gives you the impression the OP is religious? Having read their posts, I think the OP is wondering why religion is used as an excuse to punish abortion when it clearly is illogical. A feeling many of us share, i’m sure you’ll agree?

it seems like we can’t even discuss the nonsensical abuse of religion as an excuse without everyone misreading it as a challenge to force religion on you. Reading comprehension at it’s absolute finest…

@Topgub
I'd liken it to an example of knowing deep down a loved one will let us down, but taking the chance anyway. It's worth taking the chance, because you love that person and you want them to come through.

I don't think the aim of life is to try and get to Heaven, I don't think this is some great test where our good deeds are tallied. I think the aim of life is to be in community and relationship with one another, to experience joy, to appreciate the beauty that does still surround us despite all the bad. Heaven at the end of it all isn't some "reward", it's where we end up. So, in the same vein of I won't be committing suicide anytime soon just to get there sooner, I don't think more abortions are at all ideal.

And @voldr I was replying to the OP. As I said, I gave up trying to get people to hear my thoughts 10 years ago, I don't think I'm going to have any more success this weekend!

@buntywindermere

So the creator of the whole universe was a bit unsure?

Really?

@Topgub not at all unsure, I'd say He knew, just eternally hopeful!

Sorry, again, I'm not trying to convince anyone here. I believe it enough myself, and just wanted to offer my thoughts to the discussion.

@buntywindermere

That makes zero sense

@buntywindermere I thought your post made a lot of sense, so thank you. I'm sorry for your loss. What you said was beautiful

I am a religious person and believe that we have free will. Organised religion has been responsible for a lot of atrocities but don't confuse that with Jesus' message of 'Love your neighbour as yourself'.

Re abortion, I do not believe that anyone has the right to legislate their so-called religious views on others. What the US has done is about control and it's wrong. I do not believe those in power really care about unborn babies any more than they care about minorities or poor people. They know that this move will get them voted in by the far right.

As a Christian I do believe God has a plan for our lives but it’s up to us if we choose to follow it (free will). Why God allows bad things to happen that comes down the fall of mankind, (Adam & Eve). Do I understand it all no but that’s why they call it faith.

However I am Pro choice and has already been stated on this thread God gives us free will so why do we think it’s ok to take it away.

Would I support a friend going through an abortion, yes, would I go with them and hold their hand, yes. Would I condemn them for their choice, never. It’s not my place. Her body her choice always and it scares me that people think this wrong.

Surprised to hear that not all Christians believe in predestination. Is there not a passage in the bible that says something like 'all my days were written in your book before they ever came to be' or something like that? Have I made it up.

Not all Christians take every word of the Bible literally