Religious pondering Roe v. Wade

[LemonSwan]

So with the news from America being so heavily influenced by religion I have been doing some deep thinking.

So my thinking with some religious framing -

If god knows me, every unspoken word, every thought, every action I will take and the path of my life. And thus for everyone in the world.

Surely god would know in advance when he gives the gift of life to an embryo which would be aborted. So how is it against the will of god IYSWIM. Surely god would just not fertilise that egg if he didn’t wish for the embryo to be aborted.

I don’t want this to descend into pro choice vs. Anti abortion because that’s everywhere right now. This is more about people’s thoughts on the above.

And yes I know not everyone is religious so anything offensive re religion is not really where I am going with this. I am pondering philosophy of religion and insight into thought tracks of why religious people are so anti abortion if they trust in god knowing in advance all that will be.

If anyone wants to muse in with anything insightful I would be really interested.

So to those who know your Christian groups - where is C of E on predeterminism.

I have to admit my only education into this is Sunday school aged around 7/8

Ahh okay I hadn't totally missed something then

Not that I'm that fussed either way, I went because I had to not because I wanted to, but even so I was surprised I had missed something that fundamental

Further to @Applesandroses point,

• withdrawing medical treatment to allow someone to die is playing god, but giving medical treatment to save someone's life is never described as playing god.

You can't have it both ways.

It’s predestination, and C of E doesn’t have that belief.
They believe in free will- so God doesn’t know what path your life will take.

Well if someone is religious, they should also believe god chose to make a person infertile. Therefore, not believe in either IVF or adoption as god intended for them not to have a child.
Religion needs to be kept away from the law. It is not for someone else's believes to decide things for others.

What is the point of this? It's how it starts isn't it. Chip chip chip away. Oh let's talk about it from a religious point of view. Why? So you can chip away at the issue?

“Well if someone is religious, they should also believe…”

Thats not how any religion works. With any/all religion there is a huge diversity in beliefs once you start looking at different sects.

Free will doesn't mean God didn't create everything. Including abortion

Er what story in the Bible about a priest giving a rape victim a potion? Don't think that's in most bibles....

What you're talking about is the Problem of Evil. And it's one of the arguments against an Abrahamic God.

God I'd all knowing, all good, and all powerful. And yet evil exists. He either knows, and can't act, in which case he's not all powerful. Or he knows, can act and chooses not to, in which case he's not good. And so on.

Abortion isn't the place to have this little 'debate'. Ask yourself why there are underage girls locked in brothels. Or why small children get cancer. Or why Putin is not struck by lightening.

Which is why listening to religion is bullshit. Because people cherry pick the parts they want. In actual fact, religion should be kept as far away from laws as possible. People interpret things differently.

Jewish scriptures allow abortion so I hope all Jewish American women sue for their right to their religious freedoms.

I think the gist of it is that 'the lord works in mysterious ways' and you have to accept things as the will of God and not try to take action against what he wills.

I do not believe that but it's what I was taught growing up, that God's wisdom is beyond our understanding and even suffering can make life more beautiful or meaningful, or something.

Really the 'pro-life' movement is about policing women's bodies. If they were about minimising death and helping people live long, healthy lives they'd be supportive of contraception, free healthcare, free school meals etc. But they're usually against those things too.

If you can't control your own fertility, you can't participate fully in society. You're a different creature to a man, should be excluded from good jobs etc. If women can't control their own bodies then a lot of other things follow.

I hope so. It's some of the Christians who are the issue in America. Those who misinterpreted god as being pro life. And forcing everyone else to follow what they believe.
With things like Abortion, IVF etc, a persons religious beliefs shouldn't come into it.

The gulf between the Roe v Wade Supreme Court ruling and media headlines about it are worlds apart.

It is basically a case of ultra vires - the ruling is that the Supreme Court acted beyond its powers by imposing centrally what should be decided at a state level. It is about the balance of power and where the authority to legislate is located.

Roe v Wade only concerned pregnancy prior to 12 weeks gestation. At present the law on abortion in different states varies from no gestational limit to 12 weeks, and elective abortion being available for any reason in some states to medical guidelines on when it should be permitted in others. This recent ruling will inevitably lead to more variability between states in the first trimester. It won't automatically mean that any state bans abortion altogether.

You’re confusing the concept of God knowing everything with the concept of free will.

My understanding is that God is all knowing but has also given us the choice to make our own decisions.

I suppose because if you believe in God then you might choose to believe that he allows us choices in order to assess us ? It could just be some kind of test ? It’s not that he doesn’t want it to happen but he wants to see what happens when each individual is presented with two different paths 🤷‍♀️

im not religious because i feel that religion is just expectations and it feels contrived . I know too many people who are horrible but trot off to church each Sunday and call themselves Christians like that erases all the shorty things they say and do. I’d rather have no religion and just focus on being a generally decent person

shorty- shitty !

So none of that was very religious others than that, where the population is more religious and that religiosity means people are more opposed to abortion, the laws will likely be stricter than in states that do not consider abortion to be a religious or moral issue for society at large, but instead see it as a private one.

Why is it then in Texas they are anti abortion but have the death penalty that’s so confusing to me

I would say it’s down to free will. I’m religious and would not personally have an abortion but that is my choice and I do t have to the right to impose that choice on any other woman. Abortion is a fact of life and I would far rather women have access to a safe medical procedure than go back to the old days where women were dying.

Why is it then in Texas they are anti abortion but have the death penalty that’s so confusing to me

I am pro choice but I guess the reasoning here is that the death penalty is for those who have committed heinous crimes whereas unborn babies are completely innocent. I'm not pro life but I can imagine this is the thought process...I could be wrong

tbf half the punishments in the bible are being put to death so I guess at least they follow through in that respect (I am anti death penalty and no supporting them to be clear_

@LemonSwan I can't answer your question but I have 1 of my own my grandmother was Irish Catholic and 4 still births none of which were allowed to be baptised as they had never taken a breath so we're never a living person with a sole and as such couldn't be buried on consecrated ground. This was fully indoreced by Catholic doctrine for centuries so why did the Catholic Church suddenly feel the need to change this centuries old doctrine so that they could punish women for an abortion as a mortal sin, if a fetus has no sole and isn't a real person until they take a breath how can it be a sin ? Because they magically now have a sole at conception and yet my grandmother still can't have her dead babies buried on Church grounds.
I'll tell you why it's just another way to control and maline women