To think state schools should do more to push academic pupils?

[PickleM]

I've worked in both state and private schools. My observation with my own dc (in state schools) is that those who are very able academically could be given better opportunity to excel, but aren't. I see it as a great shame.

It seems like in order to tick the 'inclusive' box or help those who need more support, the children who are more capable aren't really given very challenging work.

An example would be that my dd is put in a very mixed ability group for maths and English. However, previously the class had different tables depending on level of work - those most able were given more challenging work. Those less able were given less challenging work. I've now been told by the teacher that this wasn't 'inclusive' enough for the slt. Apparently my dc is learning through 'coaching others'. I think she should give a higher level of work to those most able, I'm not interested in my dc 'coaching others' when she could be learning more complex work.

Private schools seem to have no issue with streaming children. Perhaps I've just been unlucky, ultimately it doesn't matter as I help my children learn at home, but what about capable children who don't have home support?

The majority of the country doesn't have grammar schools. The easiest way to stop the 11+ issues is to go fully comp, and then set appropriately.

My DC are all at been at a state school, a grammar school. Great results but extremely high workload and pressure.. I would say be careful what you wish for!

I think the thinkiing is that grammar schols should select by academic potential rather than attainment, so as not to disadvantage those that have been less well taught

Why don't you just write down all your grumbles and solutions and take them to the school directly? I'm sure they would be delighted to have your input.

And his forbid you may ever have a child or grandchild who is less academically able because you've just admitted that your proposed model will simply improve social mobility for the more academic children.

Let them eat cake, eh?

*god

Because the OP appears to be both a snob, whilst at the same time not 'socially mobile' enough to privately educate DC.

Ignorance and snobery.

I agree @Meem321

They seem to expect a private school
experience in a state school.

@7Worfs - learning to work hard is not over after school/uni. There is plenty of scope in a job. I have known people who have messed up (variety of reasons including not doing enough work) at some stage of their education/career. They have recovered, learnt and gone on to do pretty well. Keep on going!

@Bobbybobbins - really interesting for what works well. I do think the bottom set should have smaller classes and experienced teachers plus TAs.

@Meem321 No one is saying to leave behind less academically inclined children. In fact it makes sense to rethink approach to them also, e.g. identify aptitudes and channel them into more practical education - not everyone needs to be a surgeon or a scientist, the world also needs plumbers, electricians, mechanics etc - trades that earn very well.

@Namenic thank you, I’ve done ok, but I’m still skating by at nearly 40 🤫 I’m physically unable to complete boring work I’m not personally interested in, and that holds me back.

Well actually, by the OP's own admission, their proposal would be 'less inclusive' so...

As an experienced teacher, I can assure you that, despite many parents thinking that they know best (especially after all the 'home education that' happened' during lockdown 😂), we do, in fact have the students' best interests at heart and do our very best to give every child a positive, challenging education with rapidly diminishing funding and ever increasing criticism from all angles.

As a parent of two children who have gone through a streamed state school education, I have no regrets about not privately educating them. I also trusted their teachers and leaders to do their best by them. But that's probably because I'm a reasonable person without delusions of grandeur.

And yes, I teach in state ed. The classes are streamed in the core subjects only. I have taught both core and non core subjects and therefore both steamed and mixed ability. All of my students have succeeded in achieving qualifications reflective of their ability and some have worked hard enough and engaged with extra tuition (provided unpaid in my own time) that they have exceeded.

I suspect that OP is one of 'those' parents who would find something else to complain about if her DC's classes were streamed. OP would probably be the one who complains about the lack of/ quantity/ quality/ frequency of/ subject matter of homework.

@7Worfs - could chunking things into small units help? DH had a similar problem to you at school. He has read about the pomodoro method, zettelkasten method and Getting things Done book to try and improve. He is also trying to improve sleep/exercise to boost energy levels. I don’t know if strategies that help people with adhd could help you too?

people who were always bad at sport sometimes get super fit in their 40s - there is hope yet!

probably because they found the right sport!

Actually less able children do better in streamed classes where they are not constantly reminded of their own inadequacies in comparison with their more able classmates. They get appropriate lessons and targets and a sense of achievement. Their progress is real.

Actually less able children do better in streamed classes where they are not constantly reminded of their own inadequacies in comparison with their more able classmates. They get appropriate lessons and targets and a sense of achievement. Their progress is real

I'd love to see evidence of this.

Also, the significant measure of progress is the movement of pupils between streams. Having taught in both streamed and setted schools, apart from initial misplacements, students stayed where they were. I'm aware this is anecdotal.

As a primary school teacher, comments like this enrage me. She will be being pushed with more complex work. She will have the opportunity to use further ideas and be pushed with differentiation.. otherwise the school with have failed ofsted. Are you taking your DC's word for this? Yes coaching is highly valuable but there, of course, will be other tools being used. Teachers have to show proof of every single child making progress every single half term. Literally by opening the book at the start and end.

And, as you've worked in both, you'll know about the differences in class size, ratio and therefore feedback loop possible in private schools. How outrageous to compare the two. Of course state schools kids should have access to all the top notch facilities and perks of private school kids, but unfortunately, we do not live in a fair world.

Phew, nice to get that off my chest!

I thought all schools put children into sets.
180 boys per year in my sons’ school - streamed for core subjects, languages, and PE.

I agree that your situation doesn’t sound great and what a nightmare to teach.

My dd’s school used to provide 3 levels of work colour graded for complexity. Pupils could then choose which they did. It was offered to all so was inclusive. Perhaps you should suggest something like that with the head?

I know of no state secondary schools that don't set pupils in Maths at least from very early on

Dd's school doesn't.

Firstly, it’s an odd school where the same person teaches a child for 6 years.
Secondly, there is no such thing as ‘passing’ SATs. Or indeed ‘failing’. Each child receives a scaled score. A score of 100 is considered to be working at the expected standard for their age. A score of 101+ means they’re exceeding the expected standard. So your child was exceeding in all areas. He didn’t get the scores that you stated by being left to do nothing. He achieved them by being well taught and working hard. The higher scores that he got a year later cannot be compared. He is a year older, so the scaled scores can’t be compared as it’s a test for 11 year olds, not 12 year olds. An increase in a scaled score of 9 points means that they’ve got about 2 more questions correct; an increase of 5 points means they got 1 extra correct - that’s hardly a massive difference in results - bearing in mind the age increase.

That way of working is the opposite of inclusive.
inclusive means that everyone in a given situation can be included. So everyone in a maths lesson can access the work provided. A child who’s not capable of completing red maths tasks but chooses it anyway because they don’t want their friends to think they’re not clever enough will, by default, self exclude. They’ve chosen a task they will rarely succeed on.

My DS school does. He’s been set from week 3 of year 7.this is common.

OP, many secondary private schools require pupils to be of a certain ability before they can attend. They have a different approach and can do because a) no Ofsted b) more money c) smaller class sizes

imagine what state schools could do with the per pupil funding that we had pre 2010 (I.e.before George Osborne and David Cameron with their austerity. Oh and they knew that it was the financial crisis which caused the issues of the economy before you say Labour spent all the money. George admitted as much on a recent documentary and just shrugged).

I suspect schools do this because they have 30+ kids in class and it’s easier.

cheers Tories.

I disagree. I use this method of teaching around half the time (the textbook we use is set out like this, with 3 sections coverin the same skill at different levels). If used regularly, children learn where it is likely best they start, and the ethos and environment means no one is embarrassed to choose the correct level for thief. Of course, they don’t always make the right choice and they know they can change their mind if it proves too easy/hard. Plus an adult will be circling and discussing any surprising choices.

the alternatives would be everyone having the same work (an issue for those at the top and the bottom), or direct each child/group to the best task for them (as would happen with traditional table groupings, can be limiting if children find the work easy).

it works well for me and my classes make excellent progress 🤷‍♀️

In some ways it is easier. But I only have 16 in my classes and I still do it! It works really well for my classes.