To think state schools should do more to push academic pupils?

[PickleM]

I've worked in both state and private schools. My observation with my own dc (in state schools) is that those who are very able academically could be given better opportunity to excel, but aren't. I see it as a great shame.

It seems like in order to tick the 'inclusive' box or help those who need more support, the children who are more capable aren't really given very challenging work.

An example would be that my dd is put in a very mixed ability group for maths and English. However, previously the class had different tables depending on level of work - those most able were given more challenging work. Those less able were given less challenging work. I've now been told by the teacher that this wasn't 'inclusive' enough for the slt. Apparently my dc is learning through 'coaching others'. I think she should give a higher level of work to those most able, I'm not interested in my dc 'coaching others' when she could be learning more complex work.

Private schools seem to have no issue with streaming children. Perhaps I've just been unlucky, ultimately it doesn't matter as I help my children learn at home, but what about capable children who don't have home support?

@Thunderpunt streaming is when children are put into broad groups for ability, usually for all subjects, so for example you might have three broad “streams” in a year group, and the children stay in their stream for all their lessons. Setting is when you are put into a group for one subject according to ability - so you might be in top set for maths but set 3 for English.

The thing is, I don't think it's possible to say that a particular system is better for 'all children' - one particular child could benefit educationally from mixed ability teaching, while another might benefit from setting, but a school has to have one or the other.

IMO the least worst option is a diamond model - a top set for exceptionally high attainers, a small set with very high staffing levels for those who have significant additional needs in that subject, and a large number of completely parallel middle sets, whose coverage of the curriculum is kept in step with the highest set for as long as possible to allow movement between them (ie that the highest set is extended through depth and further exploration, not acceleration through future year group material).

I stopped doing mixed ability groups years ago because it seemed to result in the higher ability children telling the lower ability children what to write down. It resulted in better work in the books of the lower ability children but in reality very little learning went on and it was also demoralising for them. It was a waste of time for the higher ability ones.

I would also set for the smallest possible number of subjects - Maths and PE are possible contenders, possibly Science and languages in upper KS3.

I still don't think that there's enough provision for those that struggle. And those that are in the middle. I'd like to hear people speaking up about that.

Porcupineintherough I agree.

It's not just that inclusive teaching might frustrate bright children in terms of making them bored and de-motivating them. Working at a slower rate is one thing, but if the less able children are disruptive, that would be a serious hindrance to learning.

Sure - if the research says that one child explaining to another can be useful in terms of learning, then fine - do it as an occasional exercise - but not all the time, surely? It sounds like a recipe for disaster, frustration and boredom all round. Isn't that what pupil-teachers did in Victorian Board Schools?

I remember when my top set English group's teacher was absent and we were combined with the bottom set. Oh my goodness - nothing got done that lesson and most of us sat open-mouthed at the wasted time and messing about which took place. Combining children of vastly different abilities at secondary school seems to be a policy driven by ideology and not pragmatism - or indeed, trying to do the best thing for all the students. At least 2 totally different teaching styles were needed for the 2 groups and no-one learned any English that day!!!

Ideology seems to be a massive hindrance to progress in some ways.

Shocking! Ask for a refund.

Or you could spend an hour or two with her yourself at home, or buy her a book, or talk to her about maths. Just what are you expecting from one teacher and 30 little kids? I wouldn't dream of asking for the teacher to pull something out of her arse every time my child finishes first. They can read a book, or practise some French tenses they are struggling with from their French book. If your child is that smart, she'll find something challenging to do or improve on in a classroom full of books.

It's a free service and compared to the other free services we get, like policing, social care and healthcare, it's consistently delivered opportunity and results for decades, even through covid.

@cantkeepawayforever - have you seen the diamond model put into practice? It sounds interesting.

I suppose as long as the kid has some book to look through if they get their work done, it should be ok? It must be v hard teaching a large class of kids - and especially at primary I guess it can be hard to extend sideways (eg as PP mentioned, with number bonds or times tables - depending on how quickly the kids pick them up).

Thanks @LizzieVereker and @cantkeepawayforever for the streaming/setting explanation

My academically able does fine in the state sector.

He finds the work easy at school but does extra at the weekends by himself because he enjoys it.

I'm sure your dd is fine. You really shouldn't worry.

That should say ds. I worry far more about my other ds who struggles academically and is very well behaved and quiet in class.

He needs all the help he can get.

I find it hard to be concerned about an academically able child who finds the work easy but is lazy.

We live in a grammar school area. Our primary appears to do nothing to help kids who may want to attend grammar. From what i can gather, unless you have a tutor or do it yourself your child would never encounter 11plus non verbal reasoning questions until they were in the exam. They are only interested in sats. I find it strange.

I find it hard to be concerned about an academically able child who finds the work easy but is lazy.

That’s because you haven’t seen many able children go to uni/workforce and are unable to build even a modest career, because they’ve become accustomed to skating by.

In my state comp we have tried every single formation if groups over the years in my subject (English): single sex, completely streamed, completely mixed ability, top set then rest mixed, support group then rest mixed.

In order this has worked best/worst for us in terms of results:

1. Support group then rest mixed - v low ability kids in a v small group with suitable curriculum and support. Rest mixed allows middle ability kids to be inspired and aim high but can still teach complex concepts as least able kids not in group. Results v good at all ability levels.

1. Completely mixed ability - as above with inspiration but results lower at top and bottom.

1. Top set then rest mixed - good results at top and bottom but worse for middle ability kids - interesting.

1. Completely streamed - good results at top but rest not good.

1. Single sex. Disaster apart from most able girls.

100% agree. Bright kids have special educational needs that are routinely ignored.

I always eye roll when I hear some guff about 'helping all children to achieve their potential' because it's simply not true.

If I had the money for prep I'd move my DS out of mainstream in a heartbeat.

We tried single sex top sets in English once. The boys made rapid progress in comparison to the mixed groups. It didn't close the gap though, because the girls also steamed ahead.

In my county, state schools are legally prevented from doing any 11+ preparation. They teach the national curriculum, which is not what the 11+ tests.

Maybe the grammar schools could use SATS content, just a thought

Our local comp doesn’t set for anything other than maths from y9. There is no way my children will go there if I can afford private. My own experience showed me that mixed ability classes can be a bit of a disaster zone and it’s not something I want for my own children.

From my perspective, state schools absolutely cater for the bright kids.
The schools in our area have sets, the focus seems to be on the top 2 with good teaching and acess to better facilities (online homework / learning programmes regular library access to name a few.)
The bottom set is known as the dump (as per my DC), teaching is minimal and pupils are very disruptive. Difficult to get out of the bottom set as it's just not productive. Homework is often given on an A5 sheet of paper and does not look challenging... (I have had DC at both ends. And it was my hard work & paid tutors that helped DC move up.)
On top of this, the school seems to be pushing 6th form and university at every opportunity.

Very disheartening if DC isn't academic.

It’s hard, though, as the best interest of the class as a whole is not the same as the best interest of some individual pupils.

Yes, higher abilities students will benefit from explaining concept to their peers, or consolidating learning but not as much as they would benefit from being set more challenging work or learning new concepts.
But at the same time, mixed groups do benefit lower abilities students so I can understand why it is done like this, especially with 30 kids for 1 teacher + 1 TA if you are lucky 🤷🏻‍♀️

Jeez I'd be annoyed if my kids were coaching other kids. I would absolutely expect them to be able to crack on with the higher level work as I was in primary school. I would certainly pull them out and go private. Definitely something I'll be asking about when we visit schools in the coming months.

At my school we always have extra questions,that expand on the subject(reverse,reasoning,word problems etc) and if those are all done, there are challenge cards in a box for the kids to help themselves.

What I have noticed is that a lot of the high ability kids start wasting time and doing less , to avoid doing anything "extra".

The problem with using SATs style is that the most able kids hit the ceiling of the test and you can’t differentiate. At dd’s super selective the kids who took SATs all have scores of 120 / 119 across the board. And if you use SATs content but presented in unusual ways, then those DC who have had some tutoring / exam prep will do better than those who haven’t seen those types of problems before.

SATs style questions should be the norm. That is where the critical thinking comes in and shows real understanding and there are lots of ways to prevent a child hitting a ceiling. There are 4 levels of SATs style questions and a set % are the higher level ones. It is very easy to challenge children with questions.