Forest school only for 'select' children

[Eyelashesrgreat]

Ds in Y3 and his school have recently 'selected' children from his class to go to forest school. The children do this weekly whilst the other children have to stay at school and do work. The children (selected) get to wear their own clothes that day and have treats.

The school did the same thing last year and ds wasn't chosen then. Ds has had a really difficult time recently at school and would have loved to have been selected for this activity. I asked his teacher if all the children will eventually get their turn at the forest school but she has said only certain children can go. AIBU to think this is a bit unfair?

To do Forest School safely you have to know the children can and will follow instructions. Have the selected children reliably shown they will do this? I would be unwilling to risk civil or criminal prosecution or job loss which could follow if a selected child was unable to follow rules, for whatever reason

I want to reiterate I’m not against any kind of extra funding, groups or trips for those who benefit from it. My point is more that actually there’s always children who would also benefit who just never quite qualify because they don’t have a disability, they don’t have a learning disorder and on paper seem to have nothing wrong and come from an ok income and traditional family, and actually would also benefit greatly from the life skills listed from a poster above.

I was taught that about 3 weeks into having your class you should make a list off all the children from memory.
There will always be about 5 children missing. They are the ones you should focus on. They aren’t the trouble makers, they don’t have SEN, they aren’t the ‘top of the class’ or the ones who answer all the questions, they aren’t the ones who need that bit extra. They are the ones who just quietly get on. They are the ones who get missed.

As an aside, yes, in an ideal world all the children should be getting the opportunity, but they can’t, so choices have to be made.

If the OP knows every little personal detail about every kid in the school, how come they don’t know the criteria for forest school?

Its not every little personal detail. It’s more general stuff.

No SEND
No FSM
Not PP
Not in a children’s home (very easy if there isn’t one in the village)
Not looked after
Not armed forces

She doesn’t know the criteria, as she didn’t actually ask. I think she should on Monday! There is also the possibility of asking any parents whose child was selected.

@Eyelashesrgreat

things really are not always what they seem.

I’m a civil servant, so reasonable income, live in a good area. I am an engaged mum, went to parents events, all school events etc. Between the ages of 8 to 14 my son had swimming and tennis lessons and had a personal trainer. He was a cub/scout and went to all the camping trips going, we had nice holidays in the UK and a few abroad. He is popular and has lots of friends. He is nearly 18 now, we have a couple of holidays coming up, plus he has 2 expensive duke of edinburgh trips.

What picture does that paint for you?

The truth is that he has ASD and is adopted. Now we are open about both of those things. But no one knows the truth about the first four years of his life spent in poverty and neglect or the state he was in when he went into foster care - not even my mum knows the whole story. No one would guess from the happy smiling face he has put on for the world this week, the very distressing news he has had about his birth family.

Now I’m sure that given the appalling lack of respect that appears to be paid in your school, to children’s right to confidentiality by both parents and teachers, if he had been in your school it would be common knowledge about his autism and adoption. But you wouldnt know the rest, because the school would not know

@5zeds It’s actually SEND, not SEN, well they are two slightly different groups, those with SEN have additional needs that impact the support needed to access education, those with D are disabled which may or may not impact their access to education.

Pupil premium children are not automatically on the SEND register, but they are considered to have additional needs that justify extra funding. I think most people are aware that additional needs are not all related to disability.

Do you think the OP’s child is on the school’s SEND register because she says he is anxious and being bullied? no it’s highly unlikely because she seems particularly blinkered as to WHY some children need more support than hers.

Do you think he is automatically on the register if he fell behind during lockdowns? no but let me ask you a question in response to your post.

Do you assume that everyone who holds a different view to yours is ignorant and or lacking in experience?

Of course the SENCo could have shared the number of pupils identified as having SEN without sharing how they were supported

But OP's school parents clearly aren't making everything public knowledge if the forest school criteria is unknown.

If it's only just been decided now and it's until the end of term I would guess at rewards-based, rather than targeted intervention. If it runs all year around then I would guess at targeted intervention. But that is just guessing!

Ever 6 counts if the child has ever been in state care. So this could be a child who was adopted into a well off family but spent some of their time in state care. That would class them as being PP.

People might think they know everything but a child could easily be ‘looked after’ if they are actually being brought up by a family member rather than parent. If they call them mum you wouldn’t know and no one at the school gate is going to say ‘oh Sophie is actually my granddaughter because her mother went to prison when Sophie was 6 months old’. Especially not in a village full of such dreadful gossips.

My child is rubbish at listening and following instructions and does forest school, it’s part of it, getting them to listen and act safely

Its a tricky one, on the one hand of course those who require additional support should receive it without bitterness; but when it is upsetting the other children because let's face it forest school, treats, wearing your own clothes for the day are beyond nurture rooms etc then is it actually a positive thing? If it is for those with extra funding is it the best way to utilise it? Is there no way for the others to be involved, ever? It's not schools faults as much as shrinking budgets and less being available to them- but there are children 'in the middle' who often get forgotten about and it does have an effect on them. Schools also aren't aware of every child's circumstances, others may benefit just as much.

Or children who won’t cope with other activities or don’t need catch up hours, or the able ones who are particularly confident have been muddled in with the struggling to form friendships, or the ones going because they have been abused, bereaved, lost homes, have undisclosed issues, are going to have problems (eg terminal illness in the family), have invisible (to OP) difficulties chose those children, or those children have been excessively helpful all year.

OP doesn’t know because her school is not transparent.

So if it’s not every single little personal detail, how come the OP is so sure that it’s a reward system rather than a nurture one?

but when it is upsetting the other children because let's face it forest school, treats, wearing your own clothes for the day are beyond nurture rooms etc then is it actually a positive thing?
having read this thread YES I’d say it was an excellent thing for able children to feel what it’s like to be upset when others can do the fun thing you would love to be able to join in. Shame we can’t give the parents a crash course in empathy too.

What do you want to happen here? School not offer forest school at all?

So you're o.k with targeted intervention, so long as it doesn't look appealing to children who don't need it?

"Its a tricky one, on the one hand of course those who require additional support should receive it without bitterness; but when it is upsetting the other children because let's face it forest school, treats, wearing your own clothes for the day are beyond nurture rooms etc then is it actually a positive thing?"

Do you think that extra support should only be given if the extra support is something that those without the disability or disadvantage, don't want?

Do you consider how the child with the disability or disadvantage feels when they see their classmates having/doing things every day that they cannot do. Does that child feeling upset not matter?

@5zeds Rather than quoting inaccurately and selectively from my original post, have the courtesy to go back and read the whole thing, ffs. I wasn’t agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, I was pointing out the OP was assuming the forest schools thing was just a special treat for favourites or randomly selected children. I was pointing out that even if she knows which children are on the SEND register, she doesn’t know the criteria for forest schools selection, nor does she seem to have an interest in what is being done with the children who are not going to forest schools. I was pointing out the school will have reasons that it must use to justify its actions to Ofsted and the DfE. You are just inventing arguments by selective quoting and then conflating educational needs and extra needs and then pretending you didn’t so as to continue an argument of your making.

@5zeds - my original post, from which you randomly selected one comment to start a bizarre argument about whether or not you can have extra needs without officially having SEN.

You could always join the PTA and work to get funding/staff for all the children to enjoy forest school.

People might think they know everything but a child could easily be ‘looked after’ if they are actually being brought up by a family member rather than parent. If they call them mum you wouldn’t know and no one at the school gate is going to say ‘oh Sophie is actually my granddaughter because her mother went to prison when Sophie was 6 months old’. Especially not in a village full of such dreadful gossips.

One of my neighbours was in that position (well not the prison as no prison was involved) looking after her DGS from birth. But she was pretty open about it; it was no secret.

Not that they don't want, no, but there's a gulf between that and things children would really love to do and feel upset by. I great up in poverty and have a physical disability that has affected my life and its not like forest school once a week or whatever is going to change the fact that others can do lots you can't is it.

@Waffleboggy you’re still seeing it as if the purpose is a little treat and it’s not. It’s skills building and development support, it’s not a pat on the head to make them feel better about being poor.

But things like that can help to redress the balance a bit, it can help them develop skills they may struggle to otherwise. Hey it may even give them a little bit of respite from what’s going on in their life.

life isn’t fair but sulking about children at a disadvantage for whatever reason being given something really doesn’t come across well.

She will not. There is no secret about the percentage, therefore the number, of SEND children in any school. We are told that she mentioned the number of children, hopefully that is information available to anyone who reads the governing board public minutes. I think it's also quoted in Ofsted reports, but can't be bothered to check.

No I'm not, I'm seeing it as a young child would- personally I wouldn't be arsed at all if other adults get stuff I don't, in fact people struggling should absolutely get more than they do and I'd support that. But young children don't have the same ability to see things like that do they.

Probably a moot point for me anyway as DS goes to a great private school where they can all access extra circular activities and stuff like forest school is part of a regular school day.