Is it me who is the problem?

[Onlyrainbows]

I don't consider myself a "Karen" but I don't understand why I sometimes do clash with people. I used to think it was them, but maybe it's me? (Or maybe I just need to go back to sleep it's my birthday after all!)

Two examples:

Some time ago I was made redundant and was desperate for a job. I contacted career coaches and charities. The coaches seemed for the most part predatory (or didn't seem to offer quick fixes) but the charity was the worst. Their whole ethos is to get remote jobs. They were never honest that they really worked for entry level jobs and that I was out of their "scope". Never helped with my CV, and gave me very basic interview coaching that I didn't need (I wanted to discuss the feedback that I had received so far). I eventually found a job myself and signed off their services. They asked for feedback (and gave it) and was supposed to sign some forms so they could get funding from the local council, they never got back to me (but have always wondered why).

Lated one was a specialist nurse at my local hospital. I went back to visit my family across the pond and got a second opinion because a) it's easy and cheap b) I wanted to know what the protocols were over there. It never was because I mistrusted the NHS or anything, it's just a normal thing to do over there. The consultant gave a completely different diagnosis (much worse) and suggested swift action. Bear in mind I was on the public hospital pathway as it's a hybrid system, but ultimately the doctors had nothing to gain from me at this point. So I came back and asked for second/third opinion over here. It was a while saga, had to put a complaint with PALS etc...

So I don't know .. have I had by luck? Is it my tone of voice? (Which can come across as louder), my American accent?

I've never had this sort of issues at work, so I don't think it's necessarily me, but maybe even after 12+ years living in the UK I still haven't cracked down how to read people? Or how to request for things?

Happy Birthday, Rainbows 💐I'm in need of sleep, so I can't answer anything else. Have a lovely day. I bet you're over-thinking it all.

I’m sorry I don’t really understand what you’re asking, these just sound like scenarios that didn’t work out for you or were ongoing investigations in health care. It doesn’t sound like anything personal that you didn’t get what you should have.

an I missing something?

Ps happy birthday 🥳

Well, no-one goes through life never clashing with anyone, always getting what they want first time, or always having their requests met with the answer they were hoping for. Both your examples read to me like you sometimes forget that people in any profession are human and will differ in approach, opinion, and their ability to understand what you want or need from a situation. There are probably people out there who have gone away from interactions with you feeling similarly let down or misunderstood.

The 'how to ask for things' part might have something to do with it - for example I do a lot of coaching and find that people who are vague about their goals or come into it expecting me to 'fix' them with minimal information or input from them are bloody hard work - but for anyone just reading these examples we'll never know how you approach people, how assertive and clear you are about your needs, how good you are at explaining yourself etc...

Yes, basically yes. These are scenarios that "didn't go my way" BUT I also believe escalated to being more "antagonistic" than they should have.

Like maybe I get easily aggravated? And people don't respond well to it.

With the "career" people I was fairly clear (or I thought I was). I needed to get a job ASAP that paid at least £££ but that I struggled to see how to best position my CV.

The second opinion, was basically that. But the nurse did think I questioned her performance/opinion. IMO she took it quite personally.

Honestly, my first impression was against you by word 6 of your post, as like very many women I’m done with the misogynistic Karen shit, and even putting it in inverting commas perpetuates it. Can you please help women is just letting it die?

I think you misunderstood the aim of the charity. To me, it’s obvious that a charity helping with CVs and interview preparation is going to be supporting the less experienced and lower paid. Charities are generally geared to those in need who haven’t their own resources (be that financial or knowledge or experience).
They offered basic interview preparation - why would you think you’d get comment on feedback? I think that was your expectation.

I don’t see the antagonism there though? Do you just mean that they didn’t get back to you? They had your feedback. Did they need to? Perhaps they internally looked at making their offering clearer, or perhaps you’re the tiniest minority who had misunderstood their aims, and felt nothing more was needed.

Doesn't sound like clashes to me. Sounds more like you recieved services that were either substandard or didn't meet your needs. The employment industry is predatory. Charities often don't have the resources to assist to optimum standards, and to be fair, are usually geared towards people starting from a lower base line. The NHS is in a pitiful state.
You poor experiences are sadly all too common, but that's no reason not to speak up, in fact it's the only hope for improvement. As long as you're constructive, reasonable and polite, you're doing nothing wrong. If people take against you for it, they are being defensive and unprofessional.

@Testina there was no misunderstanding there, I had to sign some paperwork so they could send it back to the local council to get funding. (They charged my council something in the region of £1500 for their "consultancy" services). I never signed off those documents (as they never gave them to me once I have them my honest feedback).

I was quite honest to them, I needed help, pronto. Their whole ethos is around "remote working for this county" and what I needed was exactly that (just not entry level).

Someone else from the charity was in that interview coaching session and she thought herself it was very condescending.

You pick two odd examples so it's hard to tell, you sound quite pushy to get what you want. Second and third opinions and healthcare in the US isn't cheap.

@Yerroblemom1923 I'm not American but that's a pretty common misunderstanding because of my accent.

Hi, I can relate. I DMed you. Hope it gets better. Happy birthday

I got as far as ‘Karen’ and stopped reading. Please stop the misogyny.

I don't really see the issues. How was the first thing antagonistic? Do you think they didn't try to get the funding because your feedback was negative?

The second one is it that when you went back with the second opinion they were hostile? Was it a correct second option? I think most people don't like it being pointed out when they're wrong.

“Karen” 🙄

It sounds like the charity just wasn’t geared up to offer what you wanted. I’d assume most charities were aimed at low income or disadvantaged people, rather than experienced professionals.

Nothing wrong with getting a second opinion. It’s not really possible to say whether you were unnecessarily abrasive to the nurse as you’ve skimmed over that part.

So, who knows? I’m sure it’s not your accent. My guess (based on what you’ve written here) is that maybe you don’t always pick up on unspoken cues.

@hopeishere yes I don't think they tried to get the funding given my feedback. In that coaching session it was obvious I was getting very upset (the other lady confirmed).

@ClarissaD no I wasn't abrasive, but she wouldn't understand why I'd get a second opinion unless I didn't trust their diagnosis.

Doesn't sound like you are open to accept that maybe it's "just you", as you ask...

I’d ask MNHQ to remove the term “Karen” otherwise this thread will be overrun by comments about that

Its just something that didn't work out.

But please let the Karen thing die like PP said.

Nobody else was there to witness so I think I'd always have a skewed view about it. I totally accept it could be me, or elements of my personality.

You say you dont want to be a Karen but the Karen thing is there to shut down women with perfectly reasonable concerns so it is sexist and it is working as you feel like you dont want to be negatively perceived for feeling dissatisfied.

I think it's a slight clash of cultures with the medical one. In private systems getting a second opinion is far more usual. Although NHS says you are entitled to one, I think hardly anyone knows that, so they seldom happen, therefore the giver of the first opinion will have less experience of it. (Probably also unusual because it's nurse, I would imagine second opinions are sought more often in the case of more complex things a hospital doctor would be dealing with.)

When my father was temporarily in the UK he booked an appointment with the NHS GP "for a check-up". This was at a time when there was a three-week wait for local GP appointments. I wonder if the GP' had to retrieve his eyebrows from the ceiling after hearing that reason for a visit.

I don't really get your example, you haven't mentioned any of the antagonism happening?.

But also your tone of voice can't "come across as loud" if you are loud, you are loud. Which to be fair I do find agressive even when the person isn't being so, because regular conversations feel like I'm being shouted at.

But also in any of the cases where you wanted to get a second opinion, did you tell the 1st opinion people that thats what you were going to do? Just because that always seems stroppy, and needlessly aggro.

Like to say, loudly, something like "well I don't agree with this so I am going to go get a second opinion"
Seems antagonistic and I would assume that person is trying to get a rise out of the staff or to make them aware that you think their wrong, sort of blamimg them for a diagnosis you don't like. As opposed to something neutral like " Thank you for all the information, I'm going to go take some time to process"

Yes, it's you. Don't use names in the way that you've used Karen.

Do you mean you're Canadian rather than American? Not sure why you can't just come right and say it...

One of the cultural generalities I've noticed between North America and the UK is that in North America there is an expectation of 'customer service' to a high level and an expectation that because you pay for the service that it will be a good service. That just isn't there in there in the UK to that degree. Particularly in the NHS where it is a free service, you are almost expected to take what you can get. Long waiting times, referrals only if they deem you worthy of it etc, etc. it's hard to fight it. If you then went and told them that a medical professional in another country gave a completely different opinion to the one given my NHS, well for some people it would be like a red rag to a bill....

And then your accent, sadly there are a lot of people in the UK who will treat you badly just because of the accent. I've seen it happen with a few friends of mine and it has always saddened me.