To feel that the way we look after the elderly in this country is downright disgusting

[Besswess88]

My NDN are 90 and 93. They have no children and they own their own home.

She is my friend really despite the age difference and we have good, deep chats. She has never been in love, never been aboard and was born in 1935 and was illegitimate (as were both my parents).

I go in regularly, obviously did their shopping throughout the pandemic, help them out now they don’t have a car, go in for a chat etc etc, just neighbourly stuff.

I got age concern involved who put them in touch with amazing service from Sainsburys who allow vulnerable people with no internet to phone through their order for free delivery and persuaded her to get some help 5 days a week (but they are just doing lunch and cleaning the kitchen floor as far as I can see for bloody £25 an hour - and I keep trying to persuade her to let them help with his personal care).

He is blind and deaf and doubly incontinent and wearing pads. They share a bed and he will go into the bathroom and take the pad off flinging it everywhere, stepping in it etc and not realising. Adult social care have told her she should sell up and buy a bungalow. He is/was a huge hoarder and most of the house cannot be used because of this and I will not go in and try to “take over” and make her try to do this. She is an intelligent women who is capable of making her own decisions.

Adult social care banged on about the risk of a fire. They have lived there like that for 50 years with no fucking fire.

If they didn’t own their own home they would get so much more support and not have to face the prospect of selling up aged 90 to fund their own care?! m

She is lifting him about and cleaning up after him, he feels awful, she is exhausted. I do what I can without taking over.

Surely we are better than this?

They wouldn't get more support if they didn't own their own home, that's what I'm saying.

In answering your post I've explained what I as a social worker would be offering them - a care package and more appropriate housing. The care package would support with cleaning him up and supporting with house if they didn't want to move.

It sounds to me like they refused care. Lots of people do and there's nothing I can do about it. Lots of people say "oh Sandra (neighbor/ daughter/ friend) does that for us, we don't need help" not understanding that Sandra can't keep doing more and more. But unless Sandra tells them and us that, we can't do anything. Lots of people are full charge for care and refuse to pay when they know how much it would be.

The local authority can act as care coordinator even if the service user pays full cost.

I think the selling up is more about living in suitable accommodation than freeing up money to pay for care. A decent bungalow can cost as much as a house. There is definitely a lack of social care availability but if they have resources to pay privately, they can pretty much ask for what they want.

No.

Charges against the home are for residential care only (or people who refuse to pay and get taken to court, very stressful). If the service user doesn't have the income or savings to pay for care and are remaining living in their home then the LA will pay. If the service user refuses to disclose their finances then they will be full charge.

People have got to take responsibility for themselves before age 90, and move out for their own safety, before it seems ‘cruel’ to do so. I have an elderly grandmother still living in a massive four bedroom detached house - alone. It drives me round the bend!

Whilst money helps, lack of care staff is universal and not limited to social services provided stuff. Where I work we commission private companies and they have the same issue.

Nice.

Of course I am.

This is one of those scenarios that Equity Release may be the way to go. As they are in their 90s they will be able to release a substantial sum and will be able to fund a comprehensive care package.

Lots of good points on this thread. Had similar with DF. He trashed his house, wouldn’t fund anything and only allowed things to be done if it was free. Fire service came out and told him his house was very very dangerous yet he had capacity so he lived in a hoarders paradise.

As others say, this didn’t happen overnight. He had years to sort himself out but despite the fact he had funds he couldn’t be bothered. Also I insisted he moved into a care home in the end. He wanted me to do certain things even though I am over 100 miles away and told ss I was doing certain things to save himself money. If he had cared for his house we could have done something about daily carers coming in but it was far too late by then.

Yes I am sat with baited breath waiting for them to die and hoping they may have left me something in their will 🙄

Of course you are what?

Ok, great.

So who should pay then?

You see, I'm a cold hard bitch who struggles with empathy, so I'm going to say - it's on them to have downsized years ago and got themselves into a more appropriate living situation.
I'm sick of old people not taking responsibility for their old age care requirements.
This is especially the case when you don't have kids.
DH and I don't have kids. I'm only 38 and I've already got an eye on not owning too much stuff that we'll only have to get rid of when we're older. And we will, without hesitation, downsize to a small, town centre flat when we're 60 so that we don't have the burden of looking after a house. When we need to we'll go into sheltered living too.

Surely we all know that at some time we are going to get old and have health problems, the alternative being dying young. So why don’t people take some personal responsibility whilst they can?
Eg DH and I are in our 60’s so we are currently having a hugh clear out with the intention of downsizing in the next five years to somewhere smaller and easier to look after. It will also release some money for our future care needs.
Why is it other people’s responsibility to pay tax to look after me as I get older, especially as a lot of those people will never be able to afford their own house?

Born in 1935 but is 90 years of age? How well do you know her.

However, Adult social care is a mess, people don't want to do it and many care agencies have handed back council contracts as staff leave, who wants to clean up shit for £10.50 ph and get 25p per mile driving their own car?

The recent tax rises and the review into social care, does not address the pay issue.. just personal development and training.

If a child is ill, does the NHS pick up the tab? So why should care of the elderly be any different? but there should be a tapered amount people pay toward care, long term, its in our interests to allow some inheritance.

I agree with PPs who have said that this couple have allowed this situation to happen and that they should have made plans to sort it out before it got to this point especially knowing they had no family to rely on. It is sad to see people in this state but also sad that people don't think about their future and then rely on others (the state, family and kind neighbours) to pick up the pieces.

OP: what does your friend and neighbour want? Does she want to move? Does she want more visiting care or for her DH to have more visiting care?

If you read the Elderly Parents board often the biggest issue is people refusing to accept care, refusing to move to residential care etc.

Why not sell your house to pay for other aspects of healthcare and then rent?

Harsh though it is, this is why people fear growing old without children. You have to really plan ahead and downsize before you need to, have all your admin in order before you need to. Waiting until your 90s is too late, especially if one of you has physical/mental health problems.
Of course having children doesn't insure against having to fend for yourselves in old age but the majority of children do help their elderly parents get themselves sorted - helping them sell up and move into a home, for example.

I too think this couple should have made plans long before this. I am single, no children, and no siblings, and know that there will come a time when I have to make decisions about how I am going to cope when I am older. My DM never gave a thought to this, although thankfully she lived in a flat not a house, and I truly think she thought she would live forever. My DF on the other hand did think about it and three years ago moved into a studio apartment attached to a rest home, so he is sorted for the rest of his life. People need to take some responsiblilty for their old age, and shouldn't expect others to have to sort it out for them.

This is such a huge issue and one that so many people forget. I can offer huge packages of care, I can offer to support a move, I can offer food delivery services (though we don't fund these) I can coordinate so much. But only if people are willing to accept the care. And lots aren't.

Sometimes a refusal to accept care can be self neglect and comes under safeguarding but lots of times it's freedom of choice. Simply because someone is old does not mean we can make them do stuff they don't want because we think it's for the best/ not what we would want. And even in safeguarding, we still can't force care on people.

My DM 90 lives on her own but in a very small house. It’s dated but we have had grab rails and such like put in and it’s her world. Carer comes in a couple of times a week. But she wasn’t a hoarder. I am afraid I agree with PP. people are living far far longer now and not always because they want to. Sometimes quality of life is awful. Who wants a man who throws around used pads in the middle of the night.

They have no-one to leave their money to, so they might as well free up some of the equity in their house and have more care coming in.

Alternatively, the wife could ask SS for some respite care for her DH, to give her a break. Oddly enough, it might then be decided by the powers that be, that Dh remains in that care home (and he is more likely to agree if he's had a month there and got used to it)

OP, they will have been offered care. Adult social care is in a parlous state and there may not be any carers available due to the long-standing problems with recruitment and retention in the sector, but fwiw they will have been offered it for him in principle. The problems with social care for the elderly are much more profound than the means test, which is a distraction from the real issues imo. To reiterate what others have said- your house doesn't count for the means test if you/ your spouse are living in it. If your neighbours were encouraged to move it will be due to concerns that they are not managing the house they're in and that it is contributing to the difficulties of their situation, not because anyone is after their money or doesn't care that moving is stressful and potentially upsetting.

Really interesting read on this thread, especially from @Thebeastofsleep .

Would the kind of care that could be potentially provided in this scenario fall under the care that is being considered in the possibly upcoming £86K care cap? www.gov.uk/government/publications/build-back-better-our-plan-for-health-and-social-care/adult-social-care-charging-reform-further-details