To feel that the way we look after the elderly in this country is downright disgusting

[Besswess88]

My NDN are 90 and 93. They have no children and they own their own home.

She is my friend really despite the age difference and we have good, deep chats. She has never been in love, never been aboard and was born in 1935 and was illegitimate (as were both my parents).

I go in regularly, obviously did their shopping throughout the pandemic, help them out now they don’t have a car, go in for a chat etc etc, just neighbourly stuff.

I got age concern involved who put them in touch with amazing service from Sainsburys who allow vulnerable people with no internet to phone through their order for free delivery and persuaded her to get some help 5 days a week (but they are just doing lunch and cleaning the kitchen floor as far as I can see for bloody £25 an hour - and I keep trying to persuade her to let them help with his personal care).

He is blind and deaf and doubly incontinent and wearing pads. They share a bed and he will go into the bathroom and take the pad off flinging it everywhere, stepping in it etc and not realising. Adult social care have told her she should sell up and buy a bungalow. He is/was a huge hoarder and most of the house cannot be used because of this and I will not go in and try to “take over” and make her try to do this. She is an intelligent women who is capable of making her own decisions.

Adult social care banged on about the risk of a fire. They have lived there like that for 50 years with no fucking fire.

If they didn’t own their own home they would get so much more support and not have to face the prospect of selling up aged 90 to fund their own care?! m

She is lifting him about and cleaning up after him, he feels awful, she is exhausted. I do what I can without taking over.

Surely we are better than this?

OK. Explain to me how they move at the age of 92 with zero stress. No family support. Where they go. Where all their stuff goes. Who cares enough to stand by them through out. If they have pets, if they are established in their town, village etc.

Where is this accessible housing? I already know you can't answer any of my questions

I can answer your questions as it is my job as a social worker in these kind of situations to sort out all of the above. That's literally what we do in adult social care. That's the point of us!

Well yes, of course it is, but that’s because people either can’t or won’t pay.
Many working people can barely make ends meet, and in many cases can’t, and the entitled attitude that people should have their cake and eat it purely because they’re old really isn’t productive for those that genuinely need funding.
If 40yr old Bob and Mary had a shit load of assets they could live off, but were demanding the tax payer funded their lifestyle in benefits, mn and the daily mail would be baying for blood. Fuck it, they’d be baying if bob and Mary didn’t have assets. I have no idea why when Bob and Mary hit pension age their demands magically become perfectly reasonable. Hint, they don’t.

No, that really isn’t why catheters aren’t used.

I do. I sort it. Usually a GP, worried neighbor or shop keeper phones adult social care. I go out and do an assessment which determines if they have eligible needs under the care act. If they do, I look at how those needs can best be met and explain the various options to them. At this point, I have absolutely 0 knowledge of their financial situation. I literally do not care whether they are millionaires or the poorest people I've ever met (however with the later I'll help them sort benefits). One of the options I'll discuss with them is extra care sheltered housing - accessible 1 and 2 bed flats in a block with onsite care providers and in some cases communal dining rooms (non-compulory). In the very deprived county I work in we have 6 such facilities with between 50 and 100 flats. I support them to view the schemes, to fill in the application form (I actually do it for them). Once allocated a flat, I take them to the scheme office to complete the paperwork. I organise a company to support with packing, and I organise movers for them. If they are able to pay, I support them to the bank to get their money (if they need help). If they can't pay, we have service that will help.

The stuff that won't fit in the new flat remains in their house, which I'll help shut up and lock. I'll refer to advocacy services to assist with sorting insurances etc. I'll organise support for unpacking at their new flat.

I've worked in 3 local authorities and it's been similar in them all.

Most accept pets, if not we can support with placing them in a cattery/ kennels until they are rehomed.

The one thing I can't change is where the scheme is located. So if they aren't willing to move more than a couple of miles away (depending on where they currently are) then I'll support them with another option. This may be care in their current home, a flat or bungalow near by if they're available or a shared (with each other) room in a residential care home. All depending on their level of need.

Care is in a dire state - their are insufficient numbers of carers so waiting times are higher, but it is all possible.

The vast majority of people I work with have zero informal care (no family, friends or neighbours). Lots own their home and have money in the bank but need support to access things to help. And that is what I and my team do.

And I do all that regardless of their finances. Access to adult social care support is not means tested. We do charge, but we don't refuse to support. We financially access and charge people on a sliding scale based on a mix of income and savings (not the house they live in). But the financial assessment takes place once support is set up/ agreed. Should a person feel it is not value for money for them they can refuse the support (if they have capacity).

And I absolutely agree that they should. What makes you right?

Who should pay for it then?

Why does being elderly mean that you don't have to take any financial responsibility for your needs?

If they didn't own their own home, then they would probably have no choice but to move. Or go to a council run care home, which in my experience are awful. At least they have a house to sell which can probably foot the bill of spending the rest of their years in a nice care home.

I'm going to sound fucking harsh saying this but they weren't born aged 93. They've had a LONG time to sort this out. If they own their own home they haven't done badly out of life, and presumably at some point in the 30-40 years after retirement could have planned to downsize, so no, sorry, I don't feel particularly sorry for them or as though the very limited public sector should step in to sort their lives out due to their own issues (hoarding, lack of forward planning) when, excepting any MH issue, they've had 73 years of adult life to do so themselves before they ended up in this position.

We've only got a limited public sector budget, I'd much rather money and help go towards those who literally can't help themselves (children receiving social services support, adults with mental or physical needs, even refugees) rather than people who were completely able to help themselves at one point but juat never bohered to do ao and didn't seem to factor they would, like everyone does, get old!

Absolutely no idea what being illegitimate, either you or your neighbour, has to do with anything either???

Frankly your aggressive replies to anyone who provides you with accurate facts about social care isn't doing you any favours. You and a few other posters have cast you as the heroine in this story and social care as the baddies.
Real life is somewhat different.

Well, the money has to come from somewhere and what your saying is that it should be taken from working families. Most of whom really are struggling.

This.

I feel more sorry for younger people who are paying extortionate rent and will probably never be able to afford a home.

Unfortunately it will probably get to crisis point before they get much more support :(

I'd recommend a visit from the community fire brigade; they can often help with additional fire detectors, fire retardant blankets etc. They can also put an alert on vulnerable properties so would know in advance of the higer risk if they're ever called to that address.

Age UK may also be able to support with clearing the clutter, but only if they wanted help with it.

I absolutely disagree that your assets should be used for your care.

I’m not sure what else my money should be used for but my own benefit, however old and senile I become, but regardless of that I do agree the care for the elderly is not there. The idea they are cash cows does seem to permeate throughout society.

I don’t necessarily agree that people shouldn’t fund their own care, but it’s interesting how people apply this argument to social care but not to healthcare or raising children.
Nobody chooses to become frail or disabled or to develop dementia. But should people who could afford private healthcare or private education for their kids be made to pay for it? I’m not saying that this is my view but it’s an interesting point.

Don’t be ridiculous. Why SHOULDN’T their assets go towards their care? Sounds like you’re hoping for a nice inheritance from them

@Thebeastofsleep brilliant. Instead of disagreeing with me tell the op you can help. Public sector is not being supportive. For a small charge maybe you could help??

^Adult social care banged on about the risk of a fire. They have lived there like that for 50 years with no fucking fire.

If they didn’t own their own home they would get so much more support and not have to face the prospect of selling up aged 90 to fund their own care?!

She is lifting him about and cleaning up after him, he feels awful, she is exhausted. I do what I can without taking over.^

It would cost too much to gauge income levels, charge people etc and you risk ending up with a U.S type situation where health crises bankrupt people, leaving them in poverty. And with education... you don't want a two-tier system where some get it better than others (although that's exactly what's happening now by stealth).

Taking people's assets upon their death? Nothing bad there. Their kids won't get an inheritance but nobody's entitled to one anyway.

A helpful post @Thebeastofsleep

If they have to pay for care but want to stay in their home, can you put a charge on their home for after they die, or do you help them to access an equity release scheme? Sorry to hijack but my neighbour is in a similar situation.

@Thebeastofsleep Thank you for what you do. My Dad’s (mid-80’s needs) are currently being assessed by adult social care and they are helping us enormously. I suspect that the OP’s neighbours may not have shared everything they were offered with her, it just doesn’t sound like the full picture. Do you know whether they’ve applied for attendance allowance, for example? That helps elderly people pay for care in their own home, including personal care.

I’ve reread the OP and seen that they’re offering to help with personal care, but it sounds as if they’re refusing the help. If she’s choosing to deal with the incontinence issues herself, there’s not much anyone can do.☹️

I probably wouldn’t put it quite so bluntly but I have to say I agree with most of this. I’m mid-sixties and downsized to a bungalow five years ago. No way did I need a bungalow then, now or probably in 15 years’ time, but I’m fairly certain that in 15 years’ time I’ll be considerably less likely to be able to manage a potentially complicated house move.

I loved my previous house and lived in it for over thirty years. But I could see the writing on the wall. If you move before you actually need to, life becomes so much easier.

I think you are missing the point that both Thebeastofsleep and I have both been trying to make.

The OP only has the neighbour's version of events. The support and advice being offered by social services may be far greater than has been appreciated by the OP.

Day in day out I deal with concerned neighbours like the OP who are annoyed social care aren't doing more. We can't break confidentiality in most situations to tell them exactly what we are doing or the conversations we have had with their neighbours, but it doesn't mean there isn't stuff going on behind the scenes.

If the hoarding is particularly bad for example and they are refusing care that they need they could even be under the safeguarding team

OP:

You might have done better posting on the ‘elderly parents’ board than in AIBU, as there are many empathetic and knowledgeable people dealing with similar issues.

(Unless you did just want to vent about perceived system and provision, of course).

Ss cannot force people with capacity to go into residential care or even accept help, so that is often a barrier.

If your friend (I assume the woman) wanted to go into residential care,, and the assessment indicated that she was in need, but her husband refused, her costs could be set against the value of the house until he died. And she would not need to deal with the practicalities.

Are they getting attendance allowance?

There is help available whether or not people own their own homes, but knowing what to ask for and getting people to accept it is often the problem.

You did the right thing consulting Age Uk. They have an excellent section on their website outlining the different entitlements and support available.

The observed risk of fire could actually be helpful in getting assistance for your friend….

I cannot work out from your messages whether they have requested a larger package of care and been declined. If she is not able to manage his care needs she should request more visits. The £25 lunch call, I would be tempted to replace with a bit meal delivery service. We have a local one called Appetito and the meal arrived hot and ready to eat and they also check you are okay and get you a drink if you need it. All for less than a tenner so far better than a care call unless they are doing lots of other jobs. Maybe if they didn't the£25 in the morning to get the husband ready for the day and clean up any mess he had made.
I am always reminding patients that they cannot take their money with them when they go so should use it to make latter years as comfortable as they can.

Thank you to the social workers who have posted on this thread. 🌻