Are the unions being unreasonable to reject 5% pay offer for nhs staff?

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NHS staff in Scotland have been offered a 5% pay rise (excluding doctors and dentists who have a different pay scale)

Most health care worker unions have said its an insulting offer and should he rejected.

They are looking for a 6 - 14% patristic

Yabu - nhs staff have relatively secure jobs with good benefits and should be grateful they are getting any pay rise

Yanbu - nhs staff are extremely under paid and over worked and given the last 2 years absolutely deserve more than 5%

Perhaps I did not express myself clearly when I said QE has gone on for far too long, Since the Conservatives took over in 2010 most of it has been done under the Tories. Government debt now is far worse than it ever was under New Labour. I liked New Labour's economic policies to begin with, but they did not stick to the fiscal prudence Brown was initially following.

I've got 2 masters degrees and a doctorate, and I still earn under the average (mean) UK salary, pay in the NHS is appalling.

I trained 2015-2018, I just made it into the course before the last bursary was scrapped.
I received the maximum student bursary and maintenance loans, and had my university fees paid. Let me tell you, even then with those benefits it was a struggle to survive.
I don’t know why anyone now would train as a nurse. Paying for the pleasure of working 12.5 hours shifts on placement!
Better pay would keep more people in the profession certainly, but getting people through the doors to start with would help.

I work in local government and we got a derisory 1.5% increase.It's not a race to the bottom as others have said but there needs to be a more holistic view taken of public sector pay rather than unions negotiating over individual sectors.

'not' a race to the bottom

if nurses keep leaving at the rate they are due to pay and conditions, who’s going to care for the sick?

England NHS admin here - we get the same pay scales as nurses. Personally, I'd be happy to get a smaller % rise if it meant the nurses got closer to what they deserve, because we're losing them faster than they can recruit them. Admin have also been on a pay freeze for the same amount of time, though, and in real terms our wages are down a lot too.

@tootiredtoocare

Admin staff are really important to the nhs functioning well

Sorry I forgot that Scotland have their own bursary system, so ignore my last point.

One of the things that grinds my gears is the use of Bands to keep people’s pay down. There are Healthcare Assistants in our ED that are a band 2. They are capable and trained in venipuncture, plaster casting , wound dressing and countless other tasks that are well beyond their banding. There is no opportunity for them to move up bands unless they want to train as a nursing associate.

I also don’t know why nurses aren’t the same as midwives, where they complete 6 months to a year as a band 5, achieve some competencies, and move up to band 6. I know some incredibly experienced and hard working nurses who are still a band 5 after a decade of service.

I've been a nurse for 10 years and it is the worst it has ever been. My colleagues are leaving in droves to work on the agency and get paid significantly more for doing the same job with less responsibility. A significant pay rise won't solve every problem but I think it will certainly help.
I dread to think how much is spent on agency workers at the moment. Surely it is better is investing in permanent members of staff.

@supercalifragilistic123 in NHS Ayrshire & Arran alone 1.4 million was spent on agency staff from December to March! Most people I know are now either leaving their NHS jobs & going agency full time or are picking up their extra shifts as agency - myself included. I’m at the top of my Band 5, I will no longer earn any more of a salary unless I move into managerial roles or further education as an Advanced Nurse Practitioner or something along those lines, & as a mum to a toddler that isn’t feasible at the moment. I barely scrape by each month with the cost of living increasing so dramatically. The pay is not anywhere close to an incentive to work in the NHS & I would discourage anyone I cared about to become a nurse or HCSW.

Inflation is running at 15-20% and they want to give us a 5% pay rise which technically equates to a 10-15% pay cut.

Staffing levels are atrocious, band 5s are leaving to work in Costa (literally heard yesterday about another colleague of ex colleague who is leaving to be a bloody barista for roughly £2 less per hour) and they still won't pay nurses appropriately for the work they need to do.

No idea where that fucking Humza gets his ideas from, Band 2 wages are dogshit, porters and domestics it's bad enough but the majority of HCSW's are still band 2 and it's a disgrace what they earn for the work they do.

DH is band 3 and I'm band 7 but just gone on maternity leave and I'm genuinely thinking I won't be able to take much time off given the way things are going.

Inflation is probably even higher than 15-20% for typical lower paid NHS (and other) workers on £20-30k as they'll spend disproportionately more of their income on food, fuel and utilities and the inflation rate on these things is far more than this amount, probably 80% on fuel, 200% on utilities and 20-30% on food at least?

Band 2 salary is basically NMW, which is disgraceful for the job requirements.

It won't be the union officers that have rejected 5%, it will be the union members.

One of the biggest sources of inefficiency in the nhs is the loss of experienced staff due to inflexibility and burnout. In my opinion Giving the existing staff a pay rise would be more efficient than training new staff.

I don't feel nurses do what midwives. Honestly the nurses are stretched but its nothing compared to a midwife they should be band 7 at least. They have baby AND mum to look after only they can't even see their patients as they are not even in the bloody labour with you (no fault of theirs). My midwife was fab but she quickly had to a team of people in as babies heart rate started to drop.

Not grudging midwives their banding at all but I’m not sure you have any insight into what many nurses do. The itu nurse ventilating, managing multiple infusions, renal filtration… yes the majority are band 5s. I think they absolutely match midwives in terms of skills and responsibilities.

Inflation is running at 15-20% and they want to give us a 5% pay rise which technically equates to a 10-15% pay cut.

Realistically though, no sector is going to be getting 20% pay rises. I'm not saying that's right or anything, but with inflation this high no one's pay is going to be keeping up with that.

@Pikachuspal let's keep it respectful now. I have insight I've got 10 years plus hospital experience. I'm not sure why you have assumed my occupation? Or any previous?

@IfIhearmumagaintoday

It was an example of what could be done to keep nurses in the profession, not wanting a nursing vs midwifery debate.
And what you say supports my point that I don’t think a lot of roles are suited to the band they’re appointed, perhaps you are right and lots of midwives are band 6 when they should be 7.

@Putonyourshoes agree with your post I am a community HCSW, I’m a lone worker taking bloods, doing simple dressings, obs, support visits, end of life care. Sometimes you have no clue what you’re going into and I get paid the same as the cleaners in the hospital.

i am now at the top of my band and there is no where else to go. No love my job in the community but to progress, as you say, training to be a nurse is the only option. Thankfully I managed to get a place to do it through the open university part time whilst retaining my full pay

Not meaning to derail the thread with discussion of bands by the way but I think it’s relevant because regardless of any pay rise if the structure of job roles and bands isn’t fixed people will still be underpaid and feeling undervalued.

I had no intention to be rude at all but banding is part of the pay issue and the majority of nurses are stuck on a band 5 for most of their career even in highly skilled acute areas.

as for the pay deal of 5%, I just don’t know. People are leaving in droves for jobs with less responsibility for a pound or two less an hour.

@Putonyourshoes I wasn't slandering anybody here let's get that straight.

Theres lots of jobs but I agree nursing is the most common thing that springs to mind.

There's physio, salt, OT to consider. I also agree the pay band is poor.

Since inflation is circa 10% that’s a 5% pay cut in real terms so I don’t think it’s unreasonable at all for them to reject it.