To think wealthy people will leave Scotland?

[Juniperberries25]

..if the YES side win a referendum? Surely a lot of successful businesses and people who are wealthy/ comfortable/ have paid into a pension will not want to risk all their assets becoming worthless? Or am I missing something? Higher taxes, unknown currency, economic uncertainty, hard border, national security concerns etc

It would cost BILLIONS to set up new Government bodies (eg DVLA, Passport office, MI5, MI6, Amy Navy, RAF to name a few) so surely taxes will be much, much higher than rest of the UK?

Just to clarify I am NOT a fan of Boris but surely he will be long gone by the time Scotland actually became independent after YES vote (probably at least 10 years, just look at the BREXIT timeline).

Please don't flame me, I am just wondering what people think as I genuinely don't get how the benefits outweigh the risks.

For goodness sake. You clearly don't understand what a unicameral legislature is but if you must try and do the SNP fudging of this important issue, can you at least make an effort to get the spelling of the word correct? Unicameral. Not "unicarmel". And try to use proper sources, not Wikipedia. You are not only wasting my time with this nonsense, you are trying to dupe people.

Scotland is facing increasing problems due to the poor quality of legislation being passed by its unicameral parliament. This means that it does meet the basic tests set down by the EU for membership. The lack of independent scrutiny by another legislative public body is a huge problem. Industry advisors are routinely ignored and the committee system simply allows MSPs to invite their "favourite" advisors and representatives to tell them what they want to hear. One example just 2 weeks ago saw the Sport and Gender Recognition (Reform) Bill being debated by the SP. Holyrood's human rights and civil justice committee heard two senior male executives of sports organisations funded or part-funded by the Scottish Government argue that the bill would not significantly impact on sport. And that was it so far as listening to "industry figures" were concerned. Its absolutely appalling.

Another recent example was the complete ignoring of almost everyone working in the Scottish tourism industry when the legislation to pass the holiday let licensing regime was passed. This is why holidays all over Scotland will become prohibitively expensive due to driving out people who rent a room in their house or their annexe occasionally, so that some annoying Air bnbs in the New Town will no longer cause irritation to their multi-million pound neighbours. And handily, Edinburgh city council is making a fortune out of granting planning for new hotels all over the city.

The SNP is making no effort to address any of these constitutional problems, instead insisting that the EU is going to magically just allow Scotland to join as soon as it would become independent. It is not going to happen. The facts are that an independent Scotland would be outwith the EU, the UK and the ECHR.

The SNP has never addressed any of these issues in all the decades it has been pushing independence. Its supporters are simply making things up on the basis that most people will believe an audacious lie if they think its too big and important a thing to lie about and get away with. Schools in many European countries actually teach the basics of constitutional law - the importance of the separation of powers, the rule of law, etc - not so in Scotland.

No I don’t regard higher rate tax payers as automatically wealthy. Far from it. Very modest income to be hit by higher rate.

It's not the same as voting for the Sunlit Uplands of Brexit

It has far more in common than you are prepared to admit.

It was actually me who did a typo last night with legislation. It's fairly obvious it's autocorrect.

Also you're wrong re tourism. My auntie is head of a tourism related board and they were , from the very early stages, consulted by the SG.

I do not think Scotland will ever vote for Independence. A lot of people up there do not like or trust Nicola Sturgeon at all. They certainly aren't fond of the Tories either but they'd vote for Boris over Sturgeon.

Hmm, I don’t think that second point is correct @Florenz, unless you are working from different data. A Recent ipsos poll suggests that Nicola Sturgeon has an approval rating of 53% in Scotland, while Boris Johnson has an approval rating of 12%. Meaning she is four times more popular than him.
Scottish politics opinion poll ipsos

@Florenz but it’s not voting for a person, it’s voting for a cause. Would you really not back an idea just because you don’t like the person touting it? And I think Boris is loathed by most folk now, even his own MPs so i disagree with your belief that folk would vote for Boris over Nicola (if that was the choice, which it isn’t).

Well said 👏👏👏

But where are the answers to the big questions?

Clapping and whooping, but no answers.

@AchatAVendre Stop insulting me personally. Throwing personal insults is nasty.
Spelling does not mean I do not understand the issue, I understand what you are saying. I am disagreeing. You can dismiss the fact that there is an active internal lobby to introduce another legislative body in Scotland. As I said I listened to a long interesting debate all about it that addressed the issue in some detail.
My use of Wikipedia was because it says there are others states in the EU that are unicameral. I also explicitly stated I do not know enough about the legislative make up of other states in the EU to comment on them. But you have not commented on them either, just personally insulted me.

I also pointed out that the debate I listened to seemed to be presenting a situation where Scotland would no longer be a unicameral state without EU membership anyway. The issues presented by its current legislative infrastructure appear to be widely acknowledged, and as I said only the details of what would be established are under dispute.

Trying to claim that a state can not be a member of the EU if it has any legislation on its books passed as a unicameral state is a stretch. England and Wales still have legislation on its books before democracy existed in these countries i.e. universal suffrage.

I would absolutely not vote for independence because I believe the leaders trying to take us there are completely incompetent.
Would you get into a plane with an unqualified pilot? Or have surgery from an unqualified doctor?
The people who are running Scotland right now are not good stewards of the public purse. The appalling waste, and apparent incompetence when it comes to negotiating even the most basic of contracts demonstrates to me they would not make a good job of navigating a split. These are the people in charge right now. The idea of getting independence then voting some better people in is laughable. You really need the best of the best taking you through this whole process. Where are they?
And don’t bother comparing them to Westminster because the Scottish government is just as bad.

Seeing how the devolved ministers dealt with Covid, no way on this earth would I vote for a Scottish or Welsh devolution. He has also just put through a bill to increase the number of am's from 60 to 96!! Costing an extra £13m.

In Wales, our First Minister, banned the sale of books, paper and babies clothes in Tesco during the lockdowns. That level of incompetence and dangerous abuse of power, has no place in a devolved government

I'm in Wales and I agree. The lack of a second house to provide a check on an out-of-control government really worries me. I used to want to abolish the House of Lords but seeing the way in which the Lords have fought for women's rights and how it has managed to prevent the worst excesses of policy from being rubber-stamped, I have come to see it as absolutely vital.

Both Wales and Scotland have complacent, very small political classes where everyone knows everyone else. They're also dominated by a single party. Only yesterday a Welsh person who wants Welsh independence was berating the failures of the Labour Party, which has been in charge since devolution 25 years ago and yet hasn't been able to improve the health service and education.

Totally Agree, as incompetent as Borris and co are at present, at least there is the choice for people, a Labour Gov next GE is a possibilty, as is a Cons or a split.

However, in Wales, it will always be nothing other than a Welsh Labour Majority, and for a man who preaches democracy is key, is a dangerous place to be. A self confessed Marxist idiologist, obsessed with state power and ownership, with zero opposition. What could go wrong!

Yes. I have always been a Labour voter, and I think my core values are the same as they've ever been, but I feel as if the party is moving further and further away from me. I don't want to be a dinosaur but it troubles me how out of touch with the ordinary lives of people the Senedd sometimes seems and how the desire not to do what the English/ Westminster are doing can lead them down ever more parochial and loony paths.

Yesterday someone cited Iceland as being a prime example of a wealthy and healthy tiny country. They seem to have forgotten that the country was bankrupted and its banks went under in the fallout from 2008-9. It recovered only by taking draconian measures such as banning capital from leaving the country. People were prohibited from investing in foreign currency or buying foreign stocks and shares. Can you imagine the First Minister of Wales or Scotland doing something like that? It wouldn't be allowed in the EU, which is based on the free movement of money. Maybe if there are only 350,000 closely connected individuals on an island, as in the case of Iceland, it can work — but not in Wales or Scotland, surely. I know some extremely bright people who argue for independence. They're all well-enough off not to suffer if things are very difficult for a few years, or to move abroad if it gets unsustainable. I can't see how it would be good for all the ordinary people who just about manage.

Pluvia Yesterday someone cited Iceland as being a prime example of a wealthy and healthy tiny country. They seem to have forgotten that the country was bankrupted and its banks went under in the fallout from 2008-9. It recovered only by taking draconian measures such as banning capital from leaving the country. People were prohibited from investing in foreign currency or buying foreign stocks and shares. Can you imagine the First Minister of Wales or Scotland doing something like that? It wouldn't be allowed in the EU, which is based on the free movement of money. Maybe if there are only 350,000 closely connected individuals on an island, as in the case of Iceland, it can work — but not in Wales or Scotland, surely. I know some extremely bright people who argue for independence. They're all well-enough off not to suffer if things are very difficult for a few years, or to move abroad if it gets unsustainable. I can't see how it would be good for all the ordinary people who just about manage.

Thats actually a really interesting point to bring to everyone's attention. I could see an independent Scotland or Wales introducing capital or credit controls (different things, similar effects on ordinary people's ability to spend money outwith their own country).

Independence supporters always give examples of "successful small countries", generally ultra-conservative, low tax and secretive banking Switzerland or oil-rich, high tax Norway. Both are extremely expensive to live in. But they never give examples of less successful small countries, such as Lithuania or Estonia or Albania. Or if they do, they always put a sunlit uplands spin on it.

Its not that long ago that the UK had capital controls. Margaret Thatcher abolished them, but prior to that, you were limited in how much money you take on holiday abroad from the UK. It was also essential for joining the EU, because one of the Four Freedoms requires it.

The Scottish and Welsh governments are very left wing in their policies compared to the rest of western Europe. They really like to dictate how people spend their money and to control people's lives. They particularly hate people enjoying themselves on holiday, whether that be through an AirBnB or a second home, while second home buying is pretty standard for average middle class people in most European countries, including Switzerland and Norway. Its easy to find an AirBnB in them too. I often wonder if its some hark back to extreme Presbyterianism in Scotland's case, where people weren't supposed to enjoy themselves too much (the covenanters made the "wee frees" with their hatred of fun on Sundays look positively enlightened).

None of it sounds much of a fun place to be. Much higher taxes, your daily life controlled, the low salaries that are current in much of Scotland and not allowed to spend what you have left on a self-catering holiday but instead marshalled into a state-sanctioned hotel.

fromdownwest In Wales, our First Minister, banned the sale of books, paper and babies clothes in Tesco during the lockdowns. That level of incompetence and dangerous abuse of power, has no place in a devolved government

That devolution has created the situation in a modern democracy where a unicameral government can do such a thing is a disgraceful indictment of the way devolution has been rushed through to appease independence supporting politicians. Little thought for the people who actually suffer these policies.

Iceland's economy is currently in a way stronger position than the UK's. They also jailed their bankers.

Second-home buying in countries where renting or buying a home is not too difficult is fine. In the UK it is destroying communities with some places almost totally second homeowners. It is nothing to do with religious influence, but because of the very practical problems, it creates. It basically creates Disneyfied villages and small towns with very few or no residents, or local people living in caravan sites or virtually uninhabitable property.

Antelopvalley @AchatAVendre Stop insulting me personally. Throwing personal insults is nasty. Spelling does not mean I do not understand the issue, I understand what you are saying. I am disagreeing. You can dismiss the fact that there is an active internal lobby to introduce another legislative body in Scotland. As I said I listened to a long interesting debate all about it that addressed the issue in some detail. My use of Wikipedia was because it says there are others states in the EU that are unicameral. I also explicitly stated I do not know enough about the legislative make up of other states in the EU to comment on them. But you have not commented on them either, just personally insulted me.

Again, stop making this all about you and drawing attention to yourself over imaginary slights. This is affecting millions of lives so just try for one moment to stop being so self-centred. If you recall what Jante says in beloved Norway, the whole isn't more important than one person, and no-one is any more important than anyone else. You are simply making false statements in the hope that no-one will question them. I'm also not here to proof-read your posts. If you get things wrong, you will simply be ignored.

Where is this "active internal lobby" to be found? You would think that in a proper functioning democracy, there would be some kind of public debate being encouraged. I am qualified in the area, and all I am aware of is some vague discussions amongst those few that have a bit of common sense (although most have got fed up of trying, such as Professor of Constitutional Law at Glasgow University, Adam Tompkins) but nothing organised, concrete, effective or properly democratic.

Suggesting of whispers of "lobbying" amongst the privileged few with access to the internal workings of parliaments is about as disgusting as it gets in terms of trying to make excuses for a parliamentary system that just doesn't work for the people. You are actually trying to spin this into a normal way for a healthy country to deal with such important issues (not that it is being dealt with?)

@AchatAVendre You can't help yourself can you? Do you think all Scottish people are a bit thick? Your posts are incredibly patronising and insulting.

Are you suggesting I am lying about the long debate I listened to? Beyond insulting to pretend a public debate between senior people in the Scottish legislature are whispers of a secret lobby.
I suspect you simply do not know what is happening but won't admit it.

Or in the case of much of Scotland, a wilderness with no transport links where thousands of people used to live where only the privileged few and those who service them can afford to dwell. The Scottish Government has created the ridiculous situation whereby it is cheaper for a resident of England or a foreign country to buy a second home in Scotland, even though your grandparents might have left that part of Scotland for work.

Again, you're really not selling the prospect of an independent Scotland very well. You are presenting it as a poor country where ordinary hard working people cannot expect to to the things that ordinary hard working people can do in other countries to brighten up their lives. Instead of buying an apartment in the Alps or a cabin in the mountains (not possible in Scotland with its rigid planning controls and zoning system), they have to listen to lectures on poverty and how they are being selfish and should pay more tax.

Those "virtually uninhabitable properties or caravans" are basically Scandinavian hytter and the standard of some small apartments in the Alps (some don't even have their own bathrooms and share washing machines) would have independence supporters fainting in apoplexy, but people in other countries manage quite well without new builds and safety standards higher than in most hotels.

Where is this "long debate" by this "lobby" to be found, so that us mere mortals can share this secret knowledge?

And stop trying the different SNP tactics. Heard them all before. You've tried the "you're personally insulting me" one, and now you're onto the "you're insulting all Scots" chapter. Next it will be the "Why don't you leave Scotland if you like it so much?" no doubt. Very dreary.

tbh the prospect of Scottish independence seems to be doing nothing but make you very upset.

The Scottish Government has created the ridiculous situation whereby it is cheaper for a resident of England or a foreign country to buy a second home in Scotland, even though your grandparents might have left that part of Scotland for work.

Really?

@Teach12 I know it is such rubbish. I got fed up of the insults and am not engaging any more.

Yeah, sounds like a good plan. I'll do the same- just find it hard when there's so much nonsense but you're right, it's just a waste of time.