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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think wealthy people will leave Scotland?

1000 replies

Juniperberries25 · 16/06/2022 08:09

..if the YES side win a referendum? Surely a lot of successful businesses and people who are wealthy/ comfortable/ have paid into a pension will not want to risk all their assets becoming worthless? Or am I missing something? Higher taxes, unknown currency, economic uncertainty, hard border, national security concerns etc

It would cost BILLIONS to set up new Government bodies (eg DVLA, Passport office, MI5, MI6, Amy Navy, RAF to name a few) so surely taxes will be much, much higher than rest of the UK?

Just to clarify I am NOT a fan of Boris but surely he will be long gone by the time Scotland actually became independent after YES vote (probably at least 10 years, just look at the BREXIT timeline).

Please don't flame me, I am just wondering what people think as I genuinely don't get how the benefits outweigh the risks.

OP posts:
antelopevalley · 18/06/2022 17:52

The saltire is on lots of things in Scotland. Go into any shop for a start. But if you don't live here, you would not know that.

awaynboilyurheid · 18/06/2022 17:58

But NS will not give you that better life, it’s all rhetoric with no actual facts.
They try to talk a good game but have messed up everything they touch, the so called super hospital in Glasgow is not fit for purpose, instead of having two new hospitals or three they built one which if you’ve been to it recently is overflowing with beds in casualty waiting to be seen like you would have seen years ago in some poor third world country.
Jim Mcall wishes he never got the contract for the ferries it’s been such a disaster.
NS want to put the blame the big boys who did it then ran away, when it is her responsibility. They are not the party to give your or my children a better life, far from it.

ppSNP

antelopevalley · 18/06/2022 18:03

The SNP is not the same as having an independent Scotland.
This is a really basic concept you are not grasping.

awaynboilyurheid · 18/06/2022 18:14

The basic fact is that an Independent Scotland IS the SNP’s overriding policy, and the are happy to divert much needed funds from this country to keep trying for a yes vote , they so called once in a lifetime vote.
Perhaps it was a hamsters lifetime as it wasn’t that long ago.

Clavinova · 18/06/2022 18:20

antelopevalley
It is EU and ex EU senior officials who have said they enthusiastically welcome an application from an independent Scotland to join the EU. Are they members of the SNP?

Two former EU Commissioners not jumping up and down with enthusiasm here - 2014 and 2017:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26215963
www.express.co.uk/news/politics/854176/Brexit-news-EU-boss-Juncker-Scotland-Sturgeon-new-membership
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/10/independent-scotland-would-have-to-apply-for-eu-membership

2019 -
One of Madrid’s top diplomats in Scotland has been fired after saying that Spain would not block an independent Scotland’s accession to the EU, according to Spanish media.

www.politico.eu/article/spain-fires-diplomat-in-scotland-over-eu-membership-letter/

Fabian Zuleeg - one of the EU experts mentioned up thread - also works for the Scottish Government (amongst other appointments);

Fabian was appointed to the Standing Council on Europe, established by Scotland’s First Minister after the Brexit vote in 2016, and he is an Adviser to the Scottish Parliament’s Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee.

AchatAVendre · 18/06/2022 18:20

antelopevalley · 18/06/2022 17:06

@AchatAVendre I see your length of time for Scotland to enter the EU takes into account all the pre-discussions. Those can happen while the process is negotiated for Scotland to leave England. That itself will take at least a few years.

I was actually listening to a debate yesterday about the legislature issue in Scotland. There appears to be a major lobby to sort that issue out even if Scotland remains within the UK. It was an interesting discussion.

I am well aware of what being in the EU means. The UK used to be in it you know and my work dealt with the issue of competition with Europe. Membership of the EU brings major economic benefits and the UK is suffering now we are not members. I am also aware of the issues with certain countries joining the EU and why those countries who have applied to join are unlikely to ever be approved.

I find it extremely depressing that the only arguments against a yes vote are scaremongering. No one is able to argue that Scotland will be better off staying in the UK. I think it is clearly because there are no benefits. It is all scaremongering of what if.

AntelopeValley @AchatAVendre I see your length of time for Scotland to enter the EU takes into account all the pre-discussions.

Its not "my length of time". Its a minimum time period of how long it takes. Although I suspect an independent Scotland would be there 20 years later still talking about obstacles to EU membership being overcome, and 30 years later, trying to join EFTA.

Those can happen while the process is negotiated for Scotland to leave England. That itself will take at least a few years.

I think someone better tell the EU this is going to happen, don't you?

I was actually listening to a debate yesterday about the legislature issue in Scotland. There appears to be a major lobby to sort that issue out even if Scotland remains within the UK. It was an interesting discussion.

I've read this several times and am still unsure what point is being made. A "major lobby", eh? That'll sort it then. The EU and countries such as Germany and Spain are well known for giving in to "major lobbies" which entail them donating large amounts of their tax revenue to 3rd party countries on the periphery of Europe, just because a few of them have holidayed there.

I am well aware of what being in the EU means. The UK used to be in it you know and my work dealt with the issue of competition with Europe. Membership of the EU brings major economic benefits and the UK is suffering now we are not members. I am also aware of the issues with certain countries joining the EU and why those countries who have applied to join are unlikely to ever be approved.

Thats strange, because I could lay a bet on the SNP - led Scottish Government being anti-EU competition law, because they keep passing legislation which contravenes it. Much of the licensing regime is in breach of Article 101 or 102 because it creates niche markets for favoured contractors. And of course many of the actual rules vary from local authority to local authority which doesn't even meet a basic rule of law test. The Scottish Government was criticised along with passing unclear legislation which required court action to interpret it by the Supreme Court recently (and that small form of oversight will be lost on independence).

I would expect to see the Scottish Government planning to get its own house into order before "lobbying" a few receptive MEPs, don't you?

Overall, I don't think people realise just how poor the democratic system in Scotland is now. The UK has an antiquated non-single document Constitution, which is unusual enough, but much of the oversight has been lost with devolution. Judicial review is far more restricted in Scotland than in England While a Scottish version of the Human Rights Act Section 6(2) can be found at Section 57(2) of the Scotland Act, this does not extend the public interest defence available to public authorities in Scotland which allows any ECHR incompatible measures to be struck down by the courts. This creates an issue of lack of accountability of the Scottish government for its decisions.

The chances of the EU accepting the only country with a unicameral legislature and no proper written modern constitution are slim to zero, so much so that again, you would think that the SNP would have addressed it in the many years they have had to do so. They haven't, because the present system allows them to do exactly what the UK Government do in the UK as a whole, in giving favours to certain friends and companies, etc..

I find it extremely depressing that the only arguments against a yes vote are scaremongering. No one is able to argue that Scotland will be better off staying in the UK. I think it is clearly because there are no benefits. It is all scaremongering of what if.

Without being rude, this is an almost lot more important to a lot of people's lives than whether you find it personally depressing that people don't share the same political views as yourself. According to your definition, any form of criticism is "scaremongering" and the fact that I have gone to some extent to explain the legalities and been accused of "scaremongering" is just bloody rude, never mind a weak argument. What you are actually trying to do is dupe the public, which is a hell of a lot more than depressing and really quite morally bankrupt.

As for scaremongering, here is the Scottish Government's response when they were consulted on the EU extension of Freedom of Information rights (which emanate from the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, not the ECHR):

"“[...] more EU competence or action is viewed as unnecessary in order to enable citizens to access official environmental information within Scotland . . . While there may be some benefits, harmonising rules across the EU on rights to access environmental information has created confusion among staff in public bodies and members of the public... Harmonisation does not add to the information rights people already have in Scotland and almost all EIR requests come from people located in Scotland so there is no benefit in making it easier for people to make requests in various countries as there seems to be little demand for this . . . We believe Scottish legislation is more appropriate as Scotland already has very robust freedom of information legislation under FOISA which covers all information, including environmental information, and is designed specifically for Scottish circumstances.”

Disclaimer: Some of what I've written above has been published in real life, so don't go copying it as it will come up on a plagarism checker!

AchatAVendre · 18/06/2022 18:25

Clavinova · 18/06/2022 18:20

antelopevalley
It is EU and ex EU senior officials who have said they enthusiastically welcome an application from an independent Scotland to join the EU. Are they members of the SNP?

Two former EU Commissioners not jumping up and down with enthusiasm here - 2014 and 2017:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26215963
www.express.co.uk/news/politics/854176/Brexit-news-EU-boss-Juncker-Scotland-Sturgeon-new-membership
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/10/independent-scotland-would-have-to-apply-for-eu-membership

2019 -
One of Madrid’s top diplomats in Scotland has been fired after saying that Spain would not block an independent Scotland’s accession to the EU, according to Spanish media.

www.politico.eu/article/spain-fires-diplomat-in-scotland-over-eu-membership-letter/

Fabian Zuleeg - one of the EU experts mentioned up thread - also works for the Scottish Government (amongst other appointments);

Fabian was appointed to the Standing Council on Europe, established by Scotland’s First Minister after the Brexit vote in 2016, and he is an Adviser to the Scottish Parliament’s Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee.

The reason that the EU doesn't generally comment on Scottish independence is that it would be a clear breach of diplomacy rules and also because they lack competence. I suspect they are also rather too busy managing their own member states without getting involved in the political shenanigans of a non-member state thousands of miles away.

There is no point trying to make capital out of this. It is misleading to suggest that a very few individuals speak for the EU as a whole. What would be relevant would be Scotland getting its own house in order so that it looked like a potential model EU member state. And it is a long, long way from that and getting further away all the time, thanks to some of the downright ridiculous legislation being passed which breaches the EU Charter on Fundamental Rights or Articles 101 and 102.

Teach12 · 18/06/2022 18:46

AchatAVendre · 18/06/2022 18:20

AntelopeValley @AchatAVendre I see your length of time for Scotland to enter the EU takes into account all the pre-discussions.

Its not "my length of time". Its a minimum time period of how long it takes. Although I suspect an independent Scotland would be there 20 years later still talking about obstacles to EU membership being overcome, and 30 years later, trying to join EFTA.

Those can happen while the process is negotiated for Scotland to leave England. That itself will take at least a few years.

I think someone better tell the EU this is going to happen, don't you?

I was actually listening to a debate yesterday about the legislature issue in Scotland. There appears to be a major lobby to sort that issue out even if Scotland remains within the UK. It was an interesting discussion.

I've read this several times and am still unsure what point is being made. A "major lobby", eh? That'll sort it then. The EU and countries such as Germany and Spain are well known for giving in to "major lobbies" which entail them donating large amounts of their tax revenue to 3rd party countries on the periphery of Europe, just because a few of them have holidayed there.

I am well aware of what being in the EU means. The UK used to be in it you know and my work dealt with the issue of competition with Europe. Membership of the EU brings major economic benefits and the UK is suffering now we are not members. I am also aware of the issues with certain countries joining the EU and why those countries who have applied to join are unlikely to ever be approved.

Thats strange, because I could lay a bet on the SNP - led Scottish Government being anti-EU competition law, because they keep passing legislation which contravenes it. Much of the licensing regime is in breach of Article 101 or 102 because it creates niche markets for favoured contractors. And of course many of the actual rules vary from local authority to local authority which doesn't even meet a basic rule of law test. The Scottish Government was criticised along with passing unclear legislation which required court action to interpret it by the Supreme Court recently (and that small form of oversight will be lost on independence).

I would expect to see the Scottish Government planning to get its own house into order before "lobbying" a few receptive MEPs, don't you?

Overall, I don't think people realise just how poor the democratic system in Scotland is now. The UK has an antiquated non-single document Constitution, which is unusual enough, but much of the oversight has been lost with devolution. Judicial review is far more restricted in Scotland than in England While a Scottish version of the Human Rights Act Section 6(2) can be found at Section 57(2) of the Scotland Act, this does not extend the public interest defence available to public authorities in Scotland which allows any ECHR incompatible measures to be struck down by the courts. This creates an issue of lack of accountability of the Scottish government for its decisions.

The chances of the EU accepting the only country with a unicameral legislature and no proper written modern constitution are slim to zero, so much so that again, you would think that the SNP would have addressed it in the many years they have had to do so. They haven't, because the present system allows them to do exactly what the UK Government do in the UK as a whole, in giving favours to certain friends and companies, etc..

I find it extremely depressing that the only arguments against a yes vote are scaremongering. No one is able to argue that Scotland will be better off staying in the UK. I think it is clearly because there are no benefits. It is all scaremongering of what if.

Without being rude, this is an almost lot more important to a lot of people's lives than whether you find it personally depressing that people don't share the same political views as yourself. According to your definition, any form of criticism is "scaremongering" and the fact that I have gone to some extent to explain the legalities and been accused of "scaremongering" is just bloody rude, never mind a weak argument. What you are actually trying to do is dupe the public, which is a hell of a lot more than depressing and really quite morally bankrupt.

As for scaremongering, here is the Scottish Government's response when they were consulted on the EU extension of Freedom of Information rights (which emanate from the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, not the ECHR):

"“[...] more EU competence or action is viewed as unnecessary in order to enable citizens to access official environmental information within Scotland . . . While there may be some benefits, harmonising rules across the EU on rights to access environmental information has created confusion among staff in public bodies and members of the public... Harmonisation does not add to the information rights people already have in Scotland and almost all EIR requests come from people located in Scotland so there is no benefit in making it easier for people to make requests in various countries as there seems to be little demand for this . . . We believe Scottish legislation is more appropriate as Scotland already has very robust freedom of information legislation under FOISA which covers all information, including environmental information, and is designed specifically for Scottish circumstances.”

Disclaimer: Some of what I've written above has been published in real life, so don't go copying it as it will come up on a plagarism checker!

There are 15 EU states that have unicarmel legislation.

AchatAVendre · 18/06/2022 19:11

Teach12 · 18/06/2022 18:46

There are 15 EU states that have unicarmel legislation.

Teach12 what on earth is "unicameral legislation"?

Do you understand what the difference between a bicameral and unicameral legislature is?

New Zealand is the only other developed country in the world which has a unicameral legislature - but it does at least have a modern constitution to back it up.

Teach12 · 18/06/2022 19:16

A unicameral system - one legislative house or chamber.

Armenia, Bulgaria, Denmark, Hungary have unicameral systems.

CherryReid · 18/06/2022 19:21

@Limesaregreen
It really is not that easy to give land or homes to local people - what would the criteria be? That you were born there? That you bring a useful skill? Then when you've given these people a cheap house what's will stop them , or their children when they die from selling it to the highest bidder.
All these properties being paid over the odds for you can bet some are owned by locals who want a fat profit.
It's naive to think you can hand it out and if there 500 who were born there who gets the house.

Clavinova · 18/06/2022 20:38

Thebestwaytoscareatory
The once in a generation vote thing is a myth!

It comes from a written statement Alex Salmond made in the foreword of the independence white paper (something I very much doubt many no voters actually read).

Not just from the white paper - for example; Alex Salmond interviewed by Andrew Marr 14 September 2014 (1:01 in the clip)

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scotland-29196661

Below is the actual statement.

Actually, your quote is from the preface, the foreword says;

If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost.

www.channel4.com/news/scottish-government-publishes-independence-white-paper

www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/

It's abundantly clear from the context of the statement and the publication it appears in that its intended purpose was to encourage the yes voting part of the electorate to participate in the vote.
It was not some sort of legally binding promise made in parliament to hold the referendum once and then lock it away again for 70 odd years!

That may be so - but clearly described as "once-in-a-lifetime"/ "once-in-a-generation" a number of times in the Scottish Parliament as well (TheyWorkForYou) - including:

Nicola Sturgeon Scottish Parliament (21 August 2014)

It is a real privilege to make the last speech in the last debate in this Parliament before the referendum—before our once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to put the future of our country exactly where the future of our country should be: in the hands of the people who live here.

Stewart Maxwell (SNP) Scottish Parliament (30 April 2014)

We have 140 days to go. On 18 September, we have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to grasp this power for future generations, and we should take that opportunity by voting yes.

Ruth Davidson (Conservative) Scottish Parliament (18 Sep 2013)

In the run-up to today, the year-out point from the referendum, words such as “historic” “generational” and “once in a lifetime” have been regularly sprinkled in newspapers, on television and in interviews—rightly so, because this is an era of big politics in Scotland. We are all blessed to be participants in the discussion surrounding our nation’s future, and those who are eligible to vote next September will cast their ballot not just for themselves but for future generations.

WouldBeGood · 18/06/2022 20:41

If you don’t know what unicameral is you shouldn’t be pontificating about constitutional change

Teach12 · 18/06/2022 21:04

WouldBeGood · 18/06/2022 20:41

If you don’t know what unicameral is you shouldn’t be pontificating about constitutional change

It's actually quite simple - similar to UNIcycle and BIcycle. ;)

Fairisleflora · 18/06/2022 21:16

those that have been members of the EU for some time have benefits not available to new entrants. Ireland and Luxembourg’s low corp tax rates would not be allowed to be copied by new applicants, and the adoption of the Euro is very hard to avoid whereas countries such as Sweden and Denmark were allowed to retain their own currencies. I’m not sure about bimerical and unimerical legislature but just as current EU members have something it doesn’t mean new applicants can do the same.

Limesaregreen · 18/06/2022 21:45

@CherryReid the link I posted upthread, if you read all of the article, used the Isle of Eigg as an example of how things can be done. A community buy out 25 years ago that is a roaring success. Most of the homes within the community are owned by the community trust so a bit like social housing, therefore cannot just be sold to the highest bidder. Large Scottish estates come with many houses that tenants rent from the owner, when a community buys out such estates the tenants rent from the community trust instead of a wealthy individual.

WouldBeGood · 18/06/2022 22:45

Teach12 · 18/06/2022 21:04

It's actually quite simple - similar to UNIcycle and BIcycle. ;)

You’d think.

Abhannmor · 18/06/2022 23:30

Teach12 · 18/06/2022 19:16

A unicameral system - one legislative house or chamber.

Armenia, Bulgaria, Denmark, Hungary have unicameral systems.

Ireland essentially has a unicameral legislature. The Seanad is largely decorative. The President can refer bills to the high Court.

We also used Sterling alongside our own currency and the world 🌎 didn't end. Every time tax is mentioned the wealthy all threaten to piss off - usually to New Zealand for some reason. Then nothing happens.

But fwiw I think Devo Max is more likely than full Independence. A future London govt will likely rejoin the Single Market and Customs Union which might help the indy cause in the long run.

antelopevalley · 19/06/2022 00:55

When I talked about having listened to a debate about Scotlands unicarmel legislation set up, and lobbying to change this, I was not talking about the EU. I thought I had made that clear. It is recognised as an issue by many in Scotland involved in the legislature. There is internal lobbying in the Scottish government to change this. Hence the debate I listened to.
There appeared to be a general mood to change this, the disagreements were over the detail of what should be created.

I have zero knowledge about unicarmel states within the EU but Wikipedia says they do exist.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_parliaments_of_the_European_Union

But whether Scotland votes to be independent or not, there appears to be a move towards tackling this issue anyway so it will no longer be a unicarmel state.
This really should have been an issue the UK government addressed though when establishing devolution, or in the years since.

Blimeyherewegoagain · 19/06/2022 06:39

antelopevalley · 19/06/2022 00:55

When I talked about having listened to a debate about Scotlands unicarmel legislation set up, and lobbying to change this, I was not talking about the EU. I thought I had made that clear. It is recognised as an issue by many in Scotland involved in the legislature. There is internal lobbying in the Scottish government to change this. Hence the debate I listened to.
There appeared to be a general mood to change this, the disagreements were over the detail of what should be created.

I have zero knowledge about unicarmel states within the EU but Wikipedia says they do exist.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_parliaments_of_the_European_Union

But whether Scotland votes to be independent or not, there appears to be a move towards tackling this issue anyway so it will no longer be a unicarmel state.
This really should have been an issue the UK government addressed though when establishing devolution, or in the years since.

At the beginning Scotland didn’t have nearly the powers that it has now. Maybe that wasn’t anticipated. There’s been plenty of time since devolution to get that changed but it clearly hasn’t been a priority for the Scottish government or they would have been clamouring about it for a while.

It’s interesting that you’re blaming this on Westminster though….

CherryReid · 19/06/2022 07:29

Limesaregreen · 18/06/2022 21:45

@CherryReid the link I posted upthread, if you read all of the article, used the Isle of Eigg as an example of how things can be done. A community buy out 25 years ago that is a roaring success. Most of the homes within the community are owned by the community trust so a bit like social housing, therefore cannot just be sold to the highest bidder. Large Scottish estates come with many houses that tenants rent from the owner, when a community buys out such estates the tenants rent from the community trust instead of a wealthy individual.

Maybe I'm too cynical but surely there is a risk that say someone wants a home for their family member - could they pressurise the other residents to let the family member have the home rather than just eg give it to the most needy.

WouldBeGood · 19/06/2022 08:14

The SNP are looking pretty sleazy and not progressive today with the audio of the meeting with Blackford instructing MPs to support the MP who’s admitted unwanted sexual advances to a teenage staffer.

Ohthatsexciting · 19/06/2022 08:36

Are there many wealthy people in Scotland??

Limesaregreen · 19/06/2022 09:00

@CherryReid With community trusts it just wouldn’t work like that. It’s not how they are set up and you cannot sell or buy a house that doesn’t belong to you. A member could perhaps vouch or put a good word in if someone wished to move into a vacant one but that would be the the most that could happen

Dinoteeth · 19/06/2022 09:10

Ohthatsexciting · 19/06/2022 08:36

Are there many wealthy people in Scotland??

Depends what you class as "wealthy" if you mean higher rate tax payers who pay into the benefits system but get little back then yes.

If you mean the super rich, multi million pound mansions then probably not.

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