To feel uncomfortable about well-off women with new Ukrainian women cleaners?

[Upsizer]

A lot of my well off acquaintances have new Ukrainian female cleaners and I feel very uncomfortable about it. They talk quite openly about wanting to support the women but have made no attempt to understand the women’s professional backgrounds and I feel it’s both virtue signalling but also somewhat inappropriate. I know the government has put nothing in place to support these trained professionals back into work but to me this smacks of virtue signalling while using vulnerable people as cash in hand staff. AIBU?

Wait, are you accusing all these Ukrainian women of tax avoidance now as well?

There's 3 Ukrainian women just moved here that are advertising as cleaners - one of their hosts has helped them set up a Facebook page etc. I can't see what is wrong, the town has a shortage of cleaners (most have wait lists) and the Ukrainian women are charging the normal rate for the area (£15 an hour) one of host families has accounts knowledge and is helping them keep it legitimate and set up card payments even.

a long time ago, I was forced out of a highly paid job in the City. At the time, I thought it would be fine because I had a good pay off and a good CV. The problem was that at my level, doing the job I do, there were very few jobs. I was also, I realised later, suffering from some mental health issues as a result of the long-term bullying and gaslighting I'd gone through.

I went out and found work temping locally at pretty much minimum wage. I didn't do it a lot or for long. But I certainly never felt it was beneath me to organise someone's meetings and book travel when a few months before I'd had a PA to do it for me.

And then I started my own business, in my field. And I mostly did the kind of work I was trained for and good at and that paid well. But sometimes, when work was slow, I did a slightly different type of work that was very badly paid and not what I wanted to do. But it helped pay the bills.

In any job - as a private contractor, as a temp doing basic office admin or as a highly paid city executive I only had an issue with people who talked down to me. And that happened in all three roles. People who treated me courtesly and professionally I was fine with.

Surely it's the same with Ukrainian cleaners?

What is wrong with being a cleaner? Why do you think it is demeaning?

It's cleaning, not prostitution!

Far be it for me to actually defend the government, but there are schemes and support for people seeking work

Really? So if you were a lawyer or a CEO who was made redundant the governrment would be involved to ensure you got a job at the same level in the same type of industry? Please stop talking nonsense

I agree. No one should feel 'grateful' for having a job. Instead, employers should pay a fair wage and employees should do a good job. The employee-employer relationship should not be based on gratitude - both parties have certain rights and duties but that's it. If you're hiring a cleaner, you're entering into a transactional relationship with your own interests in mind. If you want to be a decent employer, pay the going rate (£14-16ph around here). But don't pretend to be doing a good thing 'providing work' for a refugee from a war zone.

You sound like an absolute do gooding knob! I'm actually embarrassed for you.

“And my problem with cash in hand is not tax but that this leaves people open to abuse with no insurance, guaranteed pay, protections, security or income. Plus the chance of the benefits system shafting them at some point in the future.”

I think this is a fair point. We have a cleaner (she’s not Ukrainian) and she’s mentioned she also works at a bakery where they pay her below the minimum wage. We pay her fairly (more than the local going rate).

What's wrong with employing cleaners?

These women aren't being trafficked and, I assume, not doing cleaning against their will. It's not some sort of degrading expoitation.

It's irrelevant what they were doing in their own country. Unless they are sufficiently proficient in English to do the same job here, or they need additional training, then they will have to find something else to do while they get their English up to the required standard or get onto a training course.

I'm sure no one would be happy if they came here and didn't so some sort of work.

People do cleaning for all sorts of reasons.

When I employed cleaners years ago, among the people who did it on a permanent basis there were a number of people who did it because the flexible nature of it suited their needs at the time; one of the best cleaners I had was a 'resting' actor who eventually got work and left to go on tour.

Yes, it'll help them SO much more for an agency to take their (huge) cut.

Yes, they're probably dodging paying tax, but I cannot find it in me to care. As long as the home owners are paying the going rate, then it's fine by me. Once the poor things accept they're not going home any times soon, hopefully someone will help them do the self employed paperwork & they can start paying tax & feeling even more settled.

stop being disingenuous.

& a stirring twat.

FFS.

No, there are not schemes aimed at CEOs, but there is support to get people into work and they do actually do more than say "here's a job, you must take it" and do take skills and qualifications into account.

But by all means continue to split hairs.

A previous cleaner of mine had a life-changing accident during a PhD, and after she had healed physically, her confidence was gone. A period of low stress cleaning helped her recover and a few months on, she was head-hunted for lab work, and has probably now (some years later) finished the doctorate and is teaching at university level. She was paid more than MW and neither of us were demeaned by our transactional relationship.

So using a cleaning gig to improve her spoken English and her finances, while working around school hours seems sensible. I'd do the same if I had to relocate to a country where I lacked a command of the language.

Yes, it would be shit to hire a Ukranian cleaner and use her situation to get away with paying her a pittance. But that doesn't seem to be what you have a problem with! I cannot fathom why on earth you think it would be better to pay through an agency who will take a huge cut of her pay.

Sounds like a good idea to me, and not a bad way to learn to speak English while getting paid! It's only a problem if you treat your cleaner badly or look down on her. It's just a job.

They're cleaners, not slaves. You're the one with the problem if you think there's something wrong with being a cleaner.

Subs they can't get employment with an agency or don't fancy giving the agency 25% of their wage? If they are paying them the going rate I don't see the problem. Many don't want to live on handouts and would rather do a days work. Maybe unlike you they don't look down on people who do manual labour.

I wish people would stop seeing cleaning as a 'lower' form of work. Cleaners are treated in the same way as carers, in that people treat their very useful work with disdain, rather than with the respect that it deserves.

Usually the same people who look down on benefit claimants for not getting a job, bizarrely...

Totally agree, apart from I wouldn't trust Boris Johnson to do my vacuuming. I don't think he would know how to work a vacuum cleaner!

Approaching a Ukrainian person and asking them if they want to clean for you is wrong. But if they apply for a cleaning role, in practical terms I'm not sure how refusing to employ them because you deem a job they have gone for, with their own free will, to be beneath them, will help anyone. Practically, if they need something with little language, without a prolonged training or assessment period, that has flexible hours, there are going to be limited choices.

To be fair they will probably earn much more cleaning than almost any job where English is a second language or non existent. It is very, very well paid here (twice the minimum wage) and the hours are flexible.

Ok im dealling with a number of Ukrainians atm.

They are desperate to work. They are, to a degree, under pressure to get a job because they don't know whether they will have somewhere to live in 6 months.

They don’t feel confident enough with their english to do much. They don't have transport. And many have ended up in leafy surburbs because thats where hosts are. And there isnt public transport.

Ive spent time this week looking at what jobs you can do locally without a car, experience and language. With the added issue that there is an issue with getting a DBS if they need one for a job. Yesterday, i helped someone do a job application for a kitchen porter - to wash fucking dishes in a pub. Pay rate between £7 and 9.50 an hour. There was an aptitude test as part of the application. In english. I have a degree and i struggled to do it. It was fucking ridiculous and i think probably verges on being indirect discrimination. It was embarrassing and quite frankly stress inducing. And i speak english.

What exactly are these women - especially those with young kids - supposed to do? If having a Ukrainian cleaner is somehow ethically not ok for middle class brits it leaves them even more up shit creek.

I can't say i like it. Its awful having to say to someone 'do you mind applying for cleaning jobs?' when there is very little else.

Its at best a choice between warehouse operative, cleaner, supermarket worker or kitchen porter. If your location allows for that full choice.

The virtue signalling that ukrainians shouldnt be cleaners is, in itself, tone deaf.

The only employment I could personally offer is something of a domestic nature - cleaning, gardening, ironing

I am not a business so don't have any other opportunities.

I don't have a Ukrainian cleaner as I have not encountered anyone looking for work, and I have found it difficult to have cleaners over the last 30 years (I've tried). If I did give someone work it would basically be charity from me.

This.

Are all of your friends single OP? Or is it just them employing cleaners because cleaning is wimmins work?