To feel uncomfortable about well-off women with new Ukrainian women cleaners?

[Upsizer]

A lot of my well off acquaintances have new Ukrainian female cleaners and I feel very uncomfortable about it. They talk quite openly about wanting to support the women but have made no attempt to understand the women’s professional backgrounds and I feel it’s both virtue signalling but also somewhat inappropriate. I know the government has put nothing in place to support these trained professionals back into work but to me this smacks of virtue signalling while using vulnerable people as cash in hand staff. AIBU?

My Ukrainian cleaner is at my house right now. She doesn’t speak much English, although she understands more. I pay an agency, so assume it’s all above board from a tax perspective, and she seems happy and gainfully employed. I don’t understand your issue.

Post a role, pay an appropriate wage, say thank you. I don’t need to know more than would she like a coffee and say a quick how are you and smile.

I have a BA, an MA, and various post grad qualifications.

However, I have lived in countries where I was not able to work in my chosen profession because of language issues, because of overseas qualifications not being recognised, and because I didn’t understand the local rules/laws/systems governing my profession.

I was going to start cleaning but landed a very interesting volunteer job instead. As a trailing spouse, my husband and I were fortunate enough not to need a second income as he earned enough to support us both.

Let women choose to work as cleaners if they want to. And never look down on someone who is making an honest living for themselves!

The virtue signalling isn’t coming from those employing cleaners.

My cleaning lady is very much in demand and also does dog sitting. She chose this career path and I don’t feel I exploit her. I actually ensure the house is tidy and try to make her job easier. Why is it exploitative if the women want to do it and are being paid the going rate?

Ah, so you think the Ukranians might be fleecing the system?

That puts a rather different complexion on your AIBU.

Fair dos though, OP. Not everyone works cash in hand doesn't declare earnings even if they are forrunurs.

What on earth is wrong with being a cleaner? Do you have any idea how much this country owes to the cleaners who showed up every day cleaning covid wards etc.

As long as people are being paid properly and working in appropriate conditions what on earth is wrong with earning a wage as a cleaner?

My (English) cleaner managed to buy a house with her partner (another cleaner). And
what is wrong with cleaning? It's not a job I'd enjoy, but I know people who do and as stated above it's a job that one could do if they don't have language skills of whatever country. It can also be accommodating for those who have children or are studying - my sister did it while going to medical school.
It's a bit snobbish as you come across as if cleaners are not worth your respect. Some take pride in bringing order to a house and being a valued part of the team that keeps a family functioning!

I’m Ukrainian and I’ve really struggled to bite my tongue with some friends on this issue.
One has even text me about her ‘support’. She’s got a cheap cleaner basically, who’s forced to undercut others to get work. There’s a shortage locally and otherwise prices are really high in the area for cleaning. A woman who’s fled here, without the support of her husband, alone with 3 kids in a strangers rooms.
Frankly the friend is rich enough to sponsor the family the cleaning amount without it being noticeable at all in her world. That’s support.
Friend otherwise has done nothing, not sent a text otherwise (we were pretty close). I’m had 6 family members over the last few months squeeze in my house, supported many acquaintances through the visa process, supported people through church and generally felt half crazy at times with the stress-including the worry of most my family staying in Ukraine. No one owes me support I know, but it fucks me off to hear nothing but a virtuous message about a new cleaner and nothing else.

Get a cleaner. Whatever. It’s her life. But cut the ‘support’ rubbish unless you are doing more than enjoying a cheap rate cleaner who’s otherwise a professional women with no other option. Paying her a bit extra, helping in other ways- great. Otherwise people need to drop the ‘support’ line. It’s just called getting a new cleaner.

Why do women get flack for employing cleaners? Why not men? Or does their magical penis suck up all their dirt and mess?

😂😂😂 if only! But it's a good point well made, why is it bad for women to hire cleaners but okay for men?

A few years ago a Lithuanian guy started at our local shop, spoke very little English. Always wanted to chat to improve his English and asked a lot of questions about everything. Within a couple of years his English was great and he went on to be the store manager (national chain). Then left and now runs a very large business in town (I would guess £50K salary)

Should I have felt sorry for him when he was learning English, he was taking a job that let him learn quickly?

It might not be possible for all professions to automatically transfer over (English skills aside). Lawyers and accountants for example are qualified in their specific countries - eg in English law or U.K. accounting rules. So any Ukrainians from those professions might find themselves needing to re-qualify if they wanted to work here. What’s the problem in taking on some cleaning work while you figure out what to do?

What do you expect Ukrainian refugees to do in UK when most don't speak decent level of English? Cleaner is an honest and decent job that can be done without the language knowledge. If your rich friends specifically prioritie Ukrainian cleaners over everyone else they do indeed give them this extra opportunity

Why would it be better if they are paid through an agency? It's probably economically better for the women to receive the money directly (rather than pay agency overheads, plus admin for being set up as an employee etc).
I am a little torn on it, but I can understand that many of them would value having something to do and earning some money. Someone might be a Ukrainian lawyer, but that would have very little value in the UK job market (I say that as a UK lawyer).
showing off about it, as though you are somehow mother theresa for doing it, is in really poor taste though.

It's virtue signaling I employ British cleaners. I work 12 hours shifts and prefer to chill on my days off . It's employment that fits into school hours , I don't really see the issue .

If they are paying them the going rate then fine.

I can't believe by a coincidence you have various friends who are employing Ukrainian women who have only just arrived in Britain to escape the war.

@HeleenaHandcart I can understand what you're saying here and completely agree that paying massively under the going rate and then claiming it's "support" is ridiculous.

Personally, while I have donated ad hoc to a few appeals, I don't have sufficient spare cash to just support someone long term. Nor do I have space in my home. I can also admit that I am not the kind of person who feels able to invite a stranger to live with me.

However, if I was aware of an Ukrainian woman locally who was looking for cleaning work because her English/visa/qualificatinos aren't currently usable in England and I was in the market for a cleaner, I would be more than happy to employ such a woman. I would also pay her a fair wage and would do what I could to support her. I don't think that makes me a bad person.

The cash in hand is an issue and the “I’m doing it to help refugees” is facile. But employing these women (or any who want the job) on a living wage is a great thing to do and a really good way for well off people to spend money.

I know the government has put nothing in place to support these trained professionals back into work

The government does not help British citizens back into work either (highly trained or not). Why should anyone else get priority or special treatment?

Why are you only concerned about ‘wealthy’ women? Do men not get a say when employing a cleaner? In our household we make decisions jointly, as I imagine most do in a joint household. Seems like you’re laying all the blame at women.

Is it only women that need a cleaner then, not men?

Ridiculous. For the time being it's a reasonable solution, I doubt this government has put anything sensible in place to help them. Having some money in your pocket is very reassuring and helps people feel less vulnerable.

I'm hosting a Ukrainian woman and her child. She receives UC but has to work/seek work/ train for 16hrs pw to qualify. She is desperate to prove she is doing this so has started cleaning as it fits around school hours. It is NOT cash in hand, she receives cash but she has registered with HMRC and declares her hours to the job centre.

She has effectively started her own business and is enjoying meeting people, improving her English and having a sense of self worth. I doubt she'll be a cleaner forever but who knows, maybe she'll love being her own boss. Another Ukrainian in the area is a qualified lawyer and she is very happily working in a care home.

I don't believe these women are being exploited and I don't believe they think they are. Please don't assume you know how others feel.

What’s bothering me here is the general assumption that there is something wrong or shameful about being a cleaner.

Far be it for me to actually defend the government, but there are schemes and support for people seeking work.

So really, it's not wanting special treatment at all, just equal treatment. And surely it's not too big a stretch to understand why helping refugees to find work that suits their skills - particularly if there is a shortage of that skill - is a good thing.

I’m not blaming “wealthy women” but this is the group that seems to be saying these things! It does feel very Lady of the Manor - I think that’s why it feels very uncomfortable to me.

And my problem with cash in hand is not tax but that this leaves people open to abuse with no insurance, guaranteed pay, protections, security or income. Plus the chance of the benefits system shafting them at some point in the future.

Yes I have worked as a cleaner and also employed a self-employed cleaner in the past.

Would you feel the same if your friends were giving male refugees work as gardeners or builders?