4-day working week: would it be extended to schools?

[Anothernameforallthis]

Just reading in the Guardian about a big UK project to trial a 4-day working week in a whole range of different businesses / places of employment. The benefits are expected to be clear: “The four-day week is generally considered to be a triple-dividend policy – helping employees, companies, and the climate. Our research efforts will be digging into all of this.”

If it is a great success, wouldn't we want to extend these benefits to school children and teachers? Give them a less stressful life, benefit the environment (one less day a week of the school run), more time to develop interests / hobbies / skills away from the classroom?

I'm pretty sure not all midwives, doctors and nurses have small children who need childcare, though...

Unless the entire country goes to a four day week being classed as full-time for the same pay, not pay that is sneakily reduced over time then it won't work... Why would anyone in the public sector choose to work a 5 day week, more hours for less than someone in a call centre enjoying a work life balance. Makes no sense and the public sectors will haemorrhage staff more than they are currently

Childcare?

Nobody's saying it's going to start immediately and work flawlessly right away, but it's obviously possible - it just needs some working out first.

In France we have:

2 weeks in October
2 weeks at Christmas
2 weeks in February (for skiing)
2 weeks at Easter / springtime
A 4-day weekend over Ascension
7-8 weeks of summer holidays.

So it is do-able. The summer holidays are loooooong though!

Wow. That's a lot of holiday to cover for working parents!

No.

Those who mention nursing
i work in BC where our contract is for 36 hours a week full time.
all this means is a variety of rotations not that business is limited to 36 hrs of operation.
means more staff though so government would initially have to pay to train more people.

Inclined to agree with this.
And then sectors where it didn't work, it was treated as unsociable hours and therefore remunerated better.
Lots of things aren't standard over all industries, but that doesn't mean they aren't a good idea. And maybe if the 4 day week became the norm, it would be easier to see how it could be applied more widely.
Alternatively shorter working days would be a good idea. I believe I have seen that the UK has one of the longest working weeks in Europe and is one of the countries with least productivity. More hours does not = more work.

Pretty much.

I've noticed that a lot on MN though - lots of "I can't do xyz so you shouldn't be able to do it either".

Those suggesting shorter holidays are forgetting that will push the price of holidays up, you cut the tourist season by two weeks the tourist businesses still need to make money.

And many workplaces only allow a few staff off each week which is manageable over a 6 or 7 week summer. But if everyone wants the same over 4 weeks it means people taking holidays when their kids are in school or their partner can't get the same two weeks off.

I really think it will be a nightmare for parents to manage.

Childcare?

What childcare? For school aged children.

So I should pay out for childcare that I don’t currently need, because my children are at school.

Because school isn't childcare, it's education.

Many parents pay for childcare around school hours already - how would this be any different?

Holidays should not be shortened. That's a terrible idea!

Not how it works in all authorities - ours do longer hours Mon-Thu to cover the Fri afternoon and teacher's no -contact (PPA) time is during the time children are in school. Our schools used to start later & allow an hour for lunch, both have been shaved by about 10/15mins so not immediately obvious that the time in school is longer. In our authority teachers are required to be in school for a small number of Fri afternoons across the year as part of collegiate work/professional learning sessions but most Fridays are their own.

It's really not about saying some industries can't do it, so others shouldn't. It's about having the sense to look at the significant wider ramifications of expecting some people to work longer hours than the norm and pay higher childcare costs (if indeed childcare can be found). It would be very, very silly to just think 'I'm alright so sod everyone else' and not think that might come back and bite you - and a whole bunch of other people.

Because each child would need childcare costing around £2k per year. I've based this on parents needing a full day's care each week during term time. Obviously there will be cheaper arrangements.

So two kids at primary? You need to earn an extra £4k net pa. Where's this money coming from?

It's too facile to say education isn't childcare. Of course it's education but it still allows parents to work on those days. You need to factor in childcare, its cost and availability, before you blithely change school hours.

Nothing exclusively middle class about enjoying time with family. And yes it is privilege.

Watch all the (remaining) teachers, healthca e staff, hospitality workers leave for jobs they can all do in a 4 day week then. It's hard enough to recruit in these areas anyway, especially after Covid, so let's make the jobs even less attractive!

I think the summer one should. But not the total. But I think we should lose two weeks from summer, instead distributing the time amongst the other holidays.

Way better for kids from poorer families who often spend the first few weeks in September catching up. In fact, the IoW has just shortened its summer holiday by a week and increased the October half term.

Because school isn't childcare

This is such a facile phrase. It IS childcare, among other things. We've based working patterns and benefits around that fact.

It's quite obviously not going to be acceptable to reduce schools to 4 days and expecting parents having to work 5 to suck that up. I've no idea why anyone would think it is.

That may be a problem. Who knows. It may not.

The solution, however, isn't to rediuce the time children are in school because the consequences of that to both children and working parents would be devastating.

The solution would be to recruit more PT teaching staff.

Most schools actively dislike recruiting part-time staff. I know from experience.

100%.

I can only assume that people either don't have school-aged children or are sahps with misty-eyed fantasies about enriching days out and #sourdoughbreadmakingwithmytinies

Personally I would rather we had a smaller curriculum so children could actually learn, rather than memorising (especially in secondary), if schools remained 5 days it would be nice if a smaller curriculum meant more enrichment activities.

Four days would be awkward as everything else would be open for the same time, so some parents would always work a friday for example, but school is now closed then so they would need childcare. There aren’t enough childminders around (are they on four days, doubtful as pay is poor) for all the primary school children with a parent at work on the fifth day of the week.

Agreed. The priority in education should be about what is best for the pupils. Not what is best for the teachers in terms of employment. The whole concept of the 4 day week is not only that it's best for employees but that it's best for business as people work more efficiently on that basis. Obviously that doesn't mean teachers should be given a bad deal but there are other ways to compensate for not everything being equal everywhere (as is the case in all other differentials of employment). This might be better wages, shorter days (see below), longer holidays, better pensions, better job security, etc etc etc
My view is that shorter week/ longer days doesn't benefit learning. Perhaps shorter days equally a 4 day working week in hours would be the way to go in an ideal world. With appropriate wrap around care in place.
Holidays shouldn't be cut either. It's well proven that the benefits of a siginifcant amount of time once in a while can't be compensated by odd days.
I don't think that education should be structured around childcare requirements of parents, then rather good quality wrap around care should be provided/ available.
The above isnt "I'm alright, sod everything else!" at all.

I’d prefer not if thinking of dc first, but these things tend to favour some sections of society over others - as happened with the bigger closures

the gap between top and bottom widens