To feel sad for the nhs?

[ProclivityForPyrotechnics]

The saddest thing about the cost of living and this wank stain of a government is the pathetically poor staff retainment in the NHS.

It's impossible to keep staff when they get shat on by higher management, patients aren't happy because sends short staffed so levels of complaints are at their highest (don't blame them but it doesn't make for a nice working environment)

Our amazing HCAs when they reach the top of band 2 which they are in theatres where I work, means they top out at £19,1800 a year and there is no scope for any more. At all. I've got staff leaving to work in Aldi or for call centres because they can get more and right now every penny matters.

I'm at a loss, we can't recruit because the pay is so shit so when they leave we probably won't replace them for months if ever and the service will get worst.

They deserve so much more, they do so much it's unbelievable really. There a viral part
Of the nhs and deserve some recognition.

See also nurses. I've got 3 leaving because of the manager I've taken over from, think she ruled with a rod of iron and made people so unhappy. They've said the toxic environment she and 2 other senior staff caused was just too much, but then again 1 is going to work in Lidl, one is becoming a dog walker and 1 has a job at Starbucks because they pay well.

I feel like I've got loads to do to turn around staff morale in my department and that takes time. However there is absolutely nothing I can do about pay!

This is just a rant.

Just to add, I came to post 5 weeks ago, they're all on long notice periods because they've been there a long time.

So it isn't anything to do with my management style

The saddest thing? I get that done NHS staff (not all) are underpaid for what they do but I don’t think it’s the saddest thing about the cost of living rise.

Some NHS staff, not done

Can anything be done about the toxic bullying culture in the nhs? It would help enormously if it were at least a nice place to work.

It’s the same with care. We went to look at a care home. They were short staffed! We looked online at the job adverts, and they were offering £10 an hour! Morrisons basic pay for their check out operators and shelf stackers is £10 an hour - with no responsibility and not much need for training, compared to dealing with people with complex needs, who can die at any time!

Pay is a big issue. I'm band 3 which is about 21,500 PA. I am incredibly good at my job and have a lot of responsibility for pt care but I can earn more - a lot more by going back to my old, non NHS role and sadly, given the cost of living. It's looking like I'll need to

It is a sad thing, but not the saddest thing.

But we are desperately short of NHS staff and it is getting worse by the week.

So you are on a band 7 salary or above and think the 100s of '000s who earn far less than you do, should keep their heads down and get on with the job & no they cannot ALL become band 7s.

Without well motivated staff, the NHS fails, something that many NHS managers don't seem to grasp.

Sorry but no matter how many times i read your post, thats how it comes across.

Fortunately, this attitude isn't everywhere in the NHS, my DD, though over worked, does have supportive management, who do appreciate what she does, just had a lovely leaving event, as she moves to her next rotation.

Morrisons basic pay for their check out operators and shelf stackers is £10 an hour - with no responsibility

This is absolutely the problem. I have a extensive background in safeguarding, but no longer work in that role because their is never enough staff for the cases, and the money doesn't reflect the responsibility.

This is a falsehood, many European countries have a centrally funded, free at the point of use healthcare system.
The difference is these countries see healthcare as essential and its funded to the correct levels, they did not have 18 years of underfunding by Thatcher and then Cameron/May/Johnson.

We have approx half the number of beds, nurses and doctors as the EU average, thats purely down to funding.

We wont deal with the millions in pain and without proper treatment unless the staff issue is addressed.

Yeah its pretty awful.

My team are fucking amazing and have coed amazingly well over the last 2 years and have made sure that pt care as not suffered at cost to themselves

But senior management and the govt are destroying the nhs

It started with the push for care in the community (that wasn't ever funded) and the shocking under funding.

The ageing population and ridiculous expectations of the general public are also crippling it. Add to that the ludicrous response to covid and we're fucked

People expect gold standard immediate care but they dont really want to have to pay for it

They certainly dont really want to have to pay staff what they should be earning

Its a mess

I don't think £19k for a band 2 is terrible money. When I started work in the NHS as a doctor I was on £19k (albeit many a few years ago). The wages have definitely improved in that time.

The problem is that wages aren't keeping up with inflation, there is limited career progression between bands without going back into formal training, and the wages in other sectors are improving beyond those in the NHS so people are leaving.

It falls under the age old problem of care being "womens work", like childcare and teaching, so therefore considered of little worth and not worthy of decent pay.

I agree, if we want to keep our staff the whole pay system needs an overhaul. Unfortunately it's not as simple as just paying the band 2s more. Everyone would need a decent pay rise as a percentage of their current wage in order to keep the difference between Bands. If you pay 2s more but not anyone else, then you get 2s earning more than 3s and then the 3s are unhappy. It's likely to be a massive expense.

@AndSoFinally

Yet we can afford other massive expenses like pointless track and trace

Or to let big businesses not pay as much tax as they should

19k for what care assistants do is shit.

I feel sad too. Loads of problems - pay, blame culture, fragmentation, inexperienced/poor management, target driven not people driven etc etc.

One small aspect - I feel that clinicians/the general culture of the NHS is out of step with what people really want.

There is a strong ambition to keep everyone alive forever; lots of focus on "recovery" and "rehabilitation" even for the very frail and elderly, which is quite a contrast with the thread here the other day where so many people said they really do not want to live that long/with dementia/in poverty. www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4555915-how-long-would-you-like-to-live

I know this is hard to square: for all that I say I don't want to live past 85, if I have capacity will I actually drop all the medication I'll be on at that stage? refuse antibiotics? I don't know. But I do have an Advance Decision in place (in case I do lose capacity) which will make it legally binding for everyone to follow my wishes to withhold all treatment other than palliative care.

Too many layers of management in the NHS. If these trust execs on 6 figure salaries were in the private sector they would be out on their ear. What are we paying these people for?
Why are we paying for 6 receptionists sat behind a desk gossiping while ignoring patients?
The NHS has been "on its arse" for years under successive governments and nobody has been brave enough to start chopping at the top and getting tough with the bad management and waste. Oh and deal.wuth the bullying culture

@LadyGardenersQuestionTime

IME (vast) experience what people say as part of a discussion is not the same as when they are faced with a loved one dying.

Most people want everything done. They want life prolonged as long as possible.

Its something we really need to address as a society but im not sure how.

I work in theatres at an NHS hospital too. We used to have a completely full team because it was an amazing place to work. Covid has completely destroyed it and now we can barely manage a skeleton staff to fill our theatre lists. This means we're cancelling lists, leaving patients waiting longer and longer, the waiting lists go up, we try and get it done by doing overtime and staying late, more staff become burned out, and leave, and it's a terrible cycle. NHS staff retention is everyone's problem.

I'm a band 5 and it's not the pay that irks me, I feel I am paid well enough (top increment though). It's hospital management for me. Nurse managers that hear everything, recognise the issues with staff retention (senior doctors treating ward staff like 💩) and do NOTHING about it. The attitude of 'they've always been like that, it won't change now' shouldn't earn you a management role. I thought they had to evidence continued service development and change to get there? 🤔

The ageing population and ridiculous expectations of the general public are also crippling it.

^ this is also a massive issue but it comes from the top.

Your point is valid if everyone is willing to get on with their job quietly and turn a blind eye to poor practice and being treated like crap. Not everyone is. And nobody should put up with poor treatment by colleagues, no matter their grade. When you have management that don't step in to nip issues in the bud, you then end up with fed up staff who speak up for themselves and are then seen to be causing a fuss.

I once witnessed a medic shouting, bawling and swearing down a phone at a different department, I was new and hadn't seen anything like it before. Nobody said a word, none of the nurses, senior nurse or consultants said a thing. The patients heard it and were looking at eachother like 'wtf just happened?' as it was right outside a multi bed room. I quickly knew this wasn't somewhere I wanted to stay.

It's the management that's so unbearable. Some of them are so unbelievably vile and they all stick up for each other and they all know exactly what to say and do to get away with their behaviour. The younger newer nurses with a degree are so lovely but treated like absolute garbage by most managers. It's rotten to the core management wise. The RCN do nothing about it, the NMC do nothing about it. It's just a failed system really held together by a handful of decent people.

Top of band 2 is actually £19,337. Let's not forget that HCA's aren't the only clinical staff with a lot of responsibility on band 2 though. Another issue is the scope of a band 2 role is varied across departments. Band 2's are expected to carry out resuscitation and life support while getting paid the same as the cleaners and less than some reception/admin staff. Our band 2's in my department as expected to assist consultants with administering injections and working in fluoroscopy. Then some of our receptionists are band 3's for mysterious reasons.

@NohoHank

HCA should be band 3 minimum

I have no experience with NHS management as work in a completely different field, but I do find it shocking that people with so much responsibility are paid so little. Its often in caring professions (was on the board for my DD's nursery and they don't get enough either) and I think its a hangover from the time when these occupations were dominated by women, who automatically got paid less, because they are women. I don't necessarily think that is the thinking now, but organisations are used to paying low wages for these roles, and struggle to increase salaries.

If you can get paid more at Waitrose for better hours and less responsibility this is a major problem, and will only become more so as the cost of living rises.