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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

...to end this friendship?

53 replies

wallpoppy · 21/05/2022 22:10

Been friends with Jane for 15 years. I would say we're fairly close - we've been on holiday together, I was one of her bridesmaids, I even kept her kids for a week once when she needed to go abroad to deal with her partner who was in a terrible car crash while travelling for work (he recovered and is fine now thank goodness). She's had a hard time in her career over the last few years, missing out on promotions and pay rises - she is in a really niche industry so it's not easy to just apply somewhere else so she just stays where she is and complains. The issue is that she has recently made one particular woman the focus of her blame for her issues at work and has twice now said very racist things to me about it. She hasn't called the woman a racial slur or anything, but she has said that the woman has only got where she is at work because of her race and says that the company keeps this woman in the public-facing leadership position that Jane desperately wants because they just want a "brown face" to tick the diversity box. I myself am an ethnic minority- indigenous to a Central American country- but I'm pretty much white-passing so white British people will often say things in front of me that they wouldn't say in front of someone Black or Asian.

The first time Jane said this to me, I said she had no proof of that and even if she thought she did have proof that it was a racist thing to say. She apologised and agreed that it was inappropriate but that she was just upset. I saw her this week at her house for tea and she has gone back to saying the same things, and that she doesn't feel it's racist because she now has "evidence" to back it up, because "other people [at her company] agree" and because this woman apparently made a mistake that "anyone else would have been fired for".

We fell out, I said I wasn't going to listen anymore and that I was really disappointed in her and I went home early.

She's now sent me an apologetic message - not apologising for the racism, but for bringing it up again when she knew I wouldn't want to hear it. She has promised not to mention it again. But this very much feels like a "sorry you were offended" apology because the only thing she thinks she did wrong was to upset me. I know she still feels the same way and will continue this racist talk and behaviour with other people aside from me.

AIBU to leave her on "read" and let the relationship die? Or should I try to talk her around and make her understand? I suppose the other option is to do what she wants and just to compartmentalise her racism from the rest of who she is and from our relationship but I don't feel like I can.

OP posts:
Speakuptomakeyourselfheard · 21/05/2022 22:16

It does rather sound like she's racist. Personally with something like this I'd be inclined to let the friendship die the death, but if you're feeling brave, tell her that you feel you can no longer continue with the friendship because she is clearly racist, and you find that totally unacceptable behaviour. Maybe losing a friendship over this will make her see the light.

Notimeforaname · 21/05/2022 22:25

but she has said that the woman has only got where she is at work because of her race and says that the company keeps this woman in the public-facing leadership position that Jane desperately wants because they just want a "brown face" to tick the diversity box.

This is actually happening in my job too. It a weird one.

But you dont have to be friends with her if you dont want to.

Do what you feel is best op. You're not obligated to keep a relationship with anyone who makes you feel uncomfortable.

Cherrysoup · 21/05/2022 22:28

I wouldn’t want to be friends with someone like this. I find it crazy that people would still say this kind of shit.

Dinotastic · 21/05/2022 22:30

It very much depends on how much you value her friendship in other respects. If she’s generally a good friend otherwise then I’d at least try and talk to her about structural racism etc, and explain why what she’s saying is wrong (and maybe suggest a couple of articles/books that explain white privilege). If she still refuses to engage then perhaps it’s time for some distance - and tell her exactly why. It’s hard… one the one hand I have increasingly less patience for people’s ignorance the older I get; on the other hand, if I dumped all my friends every time one of them said something dodgy about politics, gender, religion etc, I’d have none left! But I’m a big believer in trying to have an open discussion where possible.

Thatboymum · 21/05/2022 22:32

I think it’s wrong what she’s saying but for me personally I wouldn’t be so bothered I’d loose a friend of 15 years over it, I would say to her that it’s offensive and you think her racisim is disgusting and don’t want to hear it but just leave it at that

dumdumduuuummmmm · 21/05/2022 22:40

Thatboymum · 21/05/2022 22:32

I think it’s wrong what she’s saying but for me personally I wouldn’t be so bothered I’d loose a friend of 15 years over it, I would say to her that it’s offensive and you think her racisim is disgusting and don’t want to hear it but just leave it at that

Are you saying someone being overtly racist isn't a good enough reason for you to end a friendship? What would be enough? If they assaulted someone when drunk? If the cheated on their partner? With your partner? If they are a paedophile? Personally I think anyone willing to accept a racist as a friend must be someone who doesn't view racism as a big deal. Which makes you a racist supporter if not an actual racist yourself

Natty13 · 21/05/2022 22:58

Do what feels right to you. Challenging her or ghosting her, either way you'd be well within your rights. I am white but not British and have ended friendships over similar, though I usually tell them I agree that black/brown colleagues are promoted to senior positions on basis of race and that this is how it should be until reparations are made, just to watch them steam. There's a quote something like "when you are so used to privilege, equality or anything approaching that feels like oppression", I tell them that too.

ManateeFair · 21/05/2022 23:15

You can end a friendship for any reason you like. If she’s crossed a line with you, whatever that line is, YANBU to end the friendship.

For me, racism would be a dealbreaker. I’ve ended a friendship over similar attitudes.

Tandora · 21/05/2022 23:21

Dinotastic · 21/05/2022 22:30

It very much depends on how much you value her friendship in other respects. If she’s generally a good friend otherwise then I’d at least try and talk to her about structural racism etc, and explain why what she’s saying is wrong (and maybe suggest a couple of articles/books that explain white privilege). If she still refuses to engage then perhaps it’s time for some distance - and tell her exactly why. It’s hard… one the one hand I have increasingly less patience for people’s ignorance the older I get; on the other hand, if I dumped all my friends every time one of them said something dodgy about politics, gender, religion etc, I’d have none left! But I’m a big believer in trying to have an open discussion where possible.

This.

EmmiJay · 21/05/2022 23:28

Nah. Cut her off. Now she knows its an issue to you, she'll be like a dog with a bone. Been there, done that, cut them off and lived happily ever after.

phishy · 21/05/2022 23:29

I’f bet my last pound that she thinks this way about ethnic minorities in general.

I can’t believe some would stay friends with her. Well, actually, I can. Terrible.

Shoemadlady · 21/05/2022 23:43

I think you have to be either really brave here and completely challenge her or just say goodbye to the friendship. It's unacceptable for her to behave / speak that way and you're right, it feel like a "sorry I offended you" not sorry for being an Ahole kind of apology.
If you're brave enough to challenge her that's great and she may learn something new and you may open her eyes completely which is always great. X

Shoemadlady · 21/05/2022 23:44

For the record. I would always challenge. I don't stay friends with bigots or racists (I'm white btw) but wouldn't stand for it.

Sometimeswinning · 22/05/2022 00:00

It wouldn't be beyond impossible to think companies have a tick the box for diversity. She may be hitting the nail on the head with what she thinks. If you had a company with a white person, brilliant at their job and a black or brown person who was mediocre and they recieved promotion after promotion you could well assume that your friend could have a point. In an ideal world everyone is equal and there shouldn't be a need to drive diversity in companies. As it stands, there is!

This is her life though and she has a right to be annoyed if she's correct! Or she could be a complete racist who is using a person's skin colour to put them down! You're her friend, you know her best.

Penguintears · 22/05/2022 00:08

My company has a diversity agenda that actively seeks to promote Black people into more senior positions. They write about it openly as part of their diversity policy and that its one of their goals for this year.

Personally I think it's a bad idea as even if the person was the best person for the job it could even make them start to doubt whether they have got there on merit or not, regardless of what other people might be thinking. Even "positive" discrimination is discrimination.

Natty13 · 22/05/2022 00:14

Sometimeswinning · 22/05/2022 00:00

It wouldn't be beyond impossible to think companies have a tick the box for diversity. She may be hitting the nail on the head with what she thinks. If you had a company with a white person, brilliant at their job and a black or brown person who was mediocre and they recieved promotion after promotion you could well assume that your friend could have a point. In an ideal world everyone is equal and there shouldn't be a need to drive diversity in companies. As it stands, there is!

This is her life though and she has a right to be annoyed if she's correct! Or she could be a complete racist who is using a person's skin colour to put them down! You're her friend, you know her best.

Just FYI the law supports this. So many companies were being proven to discriminate for so long that a law had to be passed to support them recruiting the minority between 2 fairly equally qualified candidates.

I fully support this. I have a neighbour who complains in his country only women are being recruited to board level jobs so he can't move home. Conveniently missed out they were forced to recruit to 7% female (leaving 93% male) by the government after a massive court battle in which many women werw proven to have faced sex discrimination and won massive payouts. It will take a lot of time for these businesses to get to 7% female given that they need to make sure out of all who apply the women they put in post are also qualified from the jobs. That feels like the poor man is being discriminated against because he would automatically have walked into a job on the basis of his willy.

Sometimeswinning · 22/05/2022 00:24

Natty13 · 22/05/2022 00:14

Just FYI the law supports this. So many companies were being proven to discriminate for so long that a law had to be passed to support them recruiting the minority between 2 fairly equally qualified candidates.

I fully support this. I have a neighbour who complains in his country only women are being recruited to board level jobs so he can't move home. Conveniently missed out they were forced to recruit to 7% female (leaving 93% male) by the government after a massive court battle in which many women werw proven to have faced sex discrimination and won massive payouts. It will take a lot of time for these businesses to get to 7% female given that they need to make sure out of all who apply the women they put in post are also qualified from the jobs. That feels like the poor man is being discriminated against because he would automatically have walked into a job on the basis of his willy.

FYI as a woman I would prefer a mediocre woman to get the job over 2 brilliant men! The comment below me states they do not agree with this, so maybe try and convince them and not someone who already fully supports and understands the thinking behind this!

RockinHorseShit · 22/05/2022 00:31

Your first mistake was not telling her straight
"maybe she's just better than your racist ass for the job, at least she isn't a racist like you, so that gives her extra points for a customer facing job for starters, so stop your bitching"

& yes I'd drop this friend like a ton of bricks & tell them exactly why

BeatriceDalle · 22/05/2022 00:31

Walk away from Jane. She sounds awful.

StaunchMomma · 22/05/2022 00:39

I couldn't be friends with someone who is casually racist.

She's shown her hand now, you can't unsee it.

WakeMeUpWhenTheyHaveGone · 22/05/2022 00:43

Shoemadlady · 21/05/2022 23:44

For the record. I would always challenge. I don't stay friends with bigots or racists (I'm white btw) but wouldn't stand for it.

For the record, same here (although, I’m brown btw).

Sometimeswinning · 22/05/2022 01:06

Shoemadlady · 21/05/2022 23:44

For the record. I would always challenge. I don't stay friends with bigots or racists (I'm white btw) but wouldn't stand for it.

Always helpful to know the colour of your skin when announcing you would challenge racists!

Mrsrobinson2022 · 22/05/2022 01:21

This is very tricky. I’m BAME and I do think a lot of times there is a racist intent behind it - however I have also seen what your friend is saying in practice and have got upset about it myself when someone who is clearly not up to the job has been clearly favoured and prioritised because of their skin colour and unfairly so. Having seen this play out disastrously recently it’s made me very wary. Context is key in these situations and without being in her workplace yourself it’s very hard to know. I think you need to weight it up and consider it alongside everything else you know and see of her. Her comments alone, if they are true, do not make her racist and I’d be wary of simply labelling someone as such (I am brown for clarity)

legoouch · 22/05/2022 01:30

What @Mrsrobinson2022 said.

It’s the sackable mistake thing that stands out to me. Why wouldn’t you trust your friend on her assessment of that and validate that it feels unfair to her?

Gymnopedie · 22/05/2022 01:51

FYI as a woman I would prefer a mediocre woman to get the job over 2 brilliant men!

That doesn't work. If a woman was appointed and was actually mediocre but had got the job because of her sex, it would set our cause back enormously. Woman can do most jobs as well as or better than men (and for some women, ALL jobs) and it's that that needs to be recognised.

I certainly don't want a mediocre woman surgeon operating on me if the alternative is a brilliant man.

Sorry, off topic. But that quote bothered me.

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