...to end this friendship?

[wallpoppy]

Been friends with Jane for 15 years. I would say we're fairly close - we've been on holiday together, I was one of her bridesmaids, I even kept her kids for a week once when she needed to go abroad to deal with her partner who was in a terrible car crash while travelling for work (he recovered and is fine now thank goodness). She's had a hard time in her career over the last few years, missing out on promotions and pay rises - she is in a really niche industry so it's not easy to just apply somewhere else so she just stays where she is and complains. The issue is that she has recently made one particular woman the focus of her blame for her issues at work and has twice now said very racist things to me about it. She hasn't called the woman a racial slur or anything, but she has said that the woman has only got where she is at work because of her race and says that the company keeps this woman in the public-facing leadership position that Jane desperately wants because they just want a "brown face" to tick the diversity box. I myself am an ethnic minority- indigenous to a Central American country- but I'm pretty much white-passing so white British people will often say things in front of me that they wouldn't say in front of someone Black or Asian.

The first time Jane said this to me, I said she had no proof of that and even if she thought she did have proof that it was a racist thing to say. She apologised and agreed that it was inappropriate but that she was just upset. I saw her this week at her house for tea and she has gone back to saying the same things, and that she doesn't feel it's racist because she now has "evidence" to back it up, because "other people [at her company] agree" and because this woman apparently made a mistake that "anyone else would have been fired for".

We fell out, I said I wasn't going to listen anymore and that I was really disappointed in her and I went home early.

She's now sent me an apologetic message - not apologising for the racism, but for bringing it up again when she knew I wouldn't want to hear it. She has promised not to mention it again. But this very much feels like a "sorry you were offended" apology because the only thing she thinks she did wrong was to upset me. I know she still feels the same way and will continue this racist talk and behaviour with other people aside from me.

AIBU to leave her on "read" and let the relationship die? Or should I try to talk her around and make her understand? I suppose the other option is to do what she wants and just to compartmentalise her racism from the rest of who she is and from our relationship but I don't feel like I can.

It also bothered me and it was a bloody stupid comment. Equality is exactly that. Not showing some nonentity female over better men so as to redress past wrongs. Where does that get us. I'll get ahead on my merits thanks

Thinking about it - which I have been doing, to the point where I've got out of bed and come back to it - saying FYI as a woman I would prefer a mediocre woman to get the job over 2 brilliant men! isn't some brave, radical stance for sisterly solidarity, it's every bit as silly and short sighted as the men automatically thinking 'what sort of a man do we want for the job'.

Could she have a point? I used to work with an incompetent colleague and when I complained about her my boss told me he totally regretted hiring her but he had done that because she was a woman of colour he felt that he had to. He felt that he couldn't fire her because there were too many white people working there. This was in a big city so enough people of colour around to hire that ARE competent. It was ridiculous.

In the end the other boss fired her. By then it was years later, we already had more diversity in the office and she had lost us a very big client.

Positive discrimination is a real thing - where a company will actually hire someone of an under represented race/ethnicity or gender (even considered better if both woman and under represented race /ethnicity). My DH has been told for the past few years that he can only hire ethnic women. This is in the city in a financial institution. It is openly discussed on management calls.

so this does happen and of course your friend can validly feel upset/discouraged IF in fact she cannot progress due to positive discrimination

IF that is the case

BUT BUT using derogatory or racist terms is totally unacceptable. No, I could not be friends with someone using that type of language or expressing racist ideology.

I dropped a friend for similar reasons. I could no longer listen to the racism, homophobia and victim blaming in abuse cases, mainly historic, where they felt 'it couldn't have been that bad otherwise they wouldn't have left it 30years to ruin this poor man's life' bollocks 😡
Do what you feel is right for you.
Personally I find it hard to believe that the mindset of some people who hold these views can be changed.

Love how those saying the racist friend may have a point keep ignoring this line:

The issue is that she has recently made one particular woman the focus of her blame for her issues at work and has twice now said very racist things to me about it.

This woman is clearly bitter at missing out in promotions and is blaming the nearest ethnic minority member.

You won't be able to change her views

She might not say these things in front of you in future but you can be absolutely sure she'll continue thinking them and saying them to other people

Thank you for your post.

I work for an organisation that supports people of other races and nationalities. We have worked very hard to try to get people of various ethnicities other than white British working for and with us, but with limited success.

One of the people working with us is not performing. They are of an ethnicity and background that we were looking for. Our fault for putting that ahead of ability in the recruitment process. I was on the panel, and hold my hands up to that.
That person is still with us where a white person would not be. Because our director feels that without them we are "too white"

I'm only telling this story, because anyone working alongside them could easily and correctly make the same point as the woman in the OP. And they would not be being racist. So I'm uncomfortable with the whole leap to racism accusations in this thread. And OP, maybe you need to not jump to that conclusion either.

In style ways it's a racist judgment to say that someone can't criticise someone of a different race, or an organisation's policies about race.

I am very conflicted about what's going on with this employee. Trust me that my simply being involved with this organisation says plenty about my positive attitude to diversity and race. But these things do happen, and other employees do have the right to be annoyed when it does.

In SOME ways. Sorry, autocorrect.

I think she has a point and I know think she is being racist if the only thing she said was brown face. My husband’s company is a UK based FTSI 100 company . They have targets for increasing diversity within the company for women, BAME and LGBTQ+ For general recruitment and promotion with points being allocated for these criteria.
My white 40s husband has lost out on promotions to less skilled women who he then has to train up. The great women in the company also hate it because people think they got the job as positive discrimination . I’m not sure what the solution is but I can see it from the side of the white male who is good at their job.

I don’t think that you need to end your friendship with this woman though.

My white 40s husband has lost out on promotions to less skilled women who he then has to train up. The great women in the company also hate it because people think they got the job as positive discrimination . I’m not sure what the solution is but I can see it from the side of the white male who is good at their job

I have an extremely clever and competent friend who works for one of the top 4 and absolutely HATES positive discrimination as she has ended up with a horrendous and highly incompetent female boss and she says it just makes women look bad.

finding positive discrimination is not necessarily racist. Her wording and general attitude sounds pretty racist though which is different.

she has said that the woman has only got where she is at work because of her race and says that the company keeps this woman in the public-facing leadership position that Jane desperately wants because they just want a "brown face" to tick the diversity box

If it's true (as with the appointment that the panel that I was on made, and the repercussions of it) then she is not being racist.

I think you need to consider your positive 15 year history with this close friend before making your decision, OP.
I really don't see this as cut and dried racism at all. It might be, but it might well not be. And I'd look at the whole picture of who this friend is in general before I'd sack off a friendship, simply based on this problem she has at work.

The friendship may have run its course and is now a drag on your time and energy. Nothing wrong with moving on.

Before (if) you do move on, please plant a seed in your friend's mind to get her to challenge her ideas on race, culture and privilege. She IS able to learn and change.

I suspect her niche industry needs a shake up and to target recruitment where they'll get a greater diversity of applicants. Get more good folk in from different backgrounds is the best way to challenge all this. Bloody hard for the pioneers from those backgrounds though.

Maybe you need to consider whether your friend is right. I have also seen this happen in my organisation. People getting away with things and being recruited or promoted into roles they are not capable of doing because of positive discrimination.

If you’re ending a friendship simply because she has made that point YABVVU and a bad friend. If of course she is using racist derogatory language to describe what’s going on and you feel that she has genuinely racist beliefs then of course YANBU.

I do wonder though if you do end the friendship whether you are the kind of person who will come on here and tell people IRL what you’ve done for the back pats and for people to tell you what an amazing ally you are. I suspect you might be from what you’ve said.

I think that your friend may have a point re the positive discrimination, it would piss me off too. However there are ways of saying things and it sounds like Jane is using this woman as a bit of a scapegoat as to why she hasn’t been promoted and possibly racist views are coming to the fore.
She could’ve said ‘my company has a policy of positive discrimination which could be why X is in that position as she made a mistake and they didn’t even fire her, this is posting me off as I could do that job easily.’
I wouldn’t say that was racist, it’s stating a possible fact, but it sounds like she’s been more blatant, possibly cos she’s so frustrated.
i certainly wouldn’t leave a friendship of 15 years on ‘read’ though - that’s poor form.

She may have used the wrong language but it doesn't mean it's not happening

Have you considered that what she is saying is true and that an employee who isn't that good at her job is being given favourable treatment because of the colour of her skin?

It does happen and you can understand the frustration that other colleagues feel when they are passed over for promotion yet someone can be given preferential treatment when they aren't as good at their job.

It is no different when a very attractive bimbo type is favoured at work by the boss who fancies her and that happens very often!

If your friend is not using racist words to describe the woman then what she is complaining about is unfair to her.

To be honest, if any of our (absolutely non-racist) staff were to complain about the positive discrimination appointment we made, and who their boss is unwilling to let go, purely for the sake of appearances, they'd be absolutely justified in doing so, and I would hold my hands up with regard to my part in making that appointment.
While recognising the director's problem, I do disagree with her, but it's not my call to make.

If you don't know accurately what's happened in your friends company, then I don't think you should dump her, OP. But I would caution her to be placing the fault at her company's door, and not to blame the woman or her race, personally.

I'm a hiring manager in a large organisation. We do have recruitment targets for women and minorities in senior positions. This upsets some of the staff, however, they don’t really understand how it works and why we are doing it.

Historically our senior leadership has been dominated by Oxbridge educated white males. There has been a lot of group think which has caused at least 2 major and financially impactful mistakes. During this time hardly anyone batted an eye when yet another Oxbridge white male was promoted even if they weren’t very good. It got to the point where if an Oxbridge white male grad joined the org, it was expected by everyone that they would climb the ranks quickly, there was a sense of entitlement about it.

Talented women often left at more junior levels as it was very hard for them to become senior leaders. It was much harder still did minorities and added to this we have shocking sex and ethnicity pay gaps as many of the white males were awarding others like them with the highest pay increases and bonuses. I’m in a position where I could see the data at an organisational level so you could see undeniable and troubling themes.

Recently we got a new CEO and he’s trying to shake things up. He has committed to having targeted recruitment of women and minorities into senior positions. A social mobility drive is also happening as it was acknowledged that one of the reasons why we have such imbalance is because we look for characteristics which broadly match those of confident Oxbridge types.

There is a nuance to this though, he’s not saying hire mediocre women and minorities. He’s saying think about where you are placing ads, advertise in more diverse places e.g. sites for women back to work following Mat leave, call recruiters who have experience head hunting diverse talent. This way the pool of candidates is wider. Then when after the rounds of interviews if you have 2 strong candidates. If one has protected characteristics hire that one.

This has caused anger from many colleagues who call it positive discrimination in favour of weak candidates but it’s not it’s giving more diverse a people a fair crack and will ultimately strengthen the org. Trust me the senior women and minorities in our leadership positions have often had to prove themselves much more than the white males in my org. But as PP said if you’re used to having everything equality can feel like oppression.

OPs friend probably lost that role fair and square. If a white male had got it she wouldn’t be complaining as much even if he wasn’t very good as she has been conditioned to believe this is the natural order. She also appears to lack empathy and accountability which may have come out during the interview.

OP, tell her straight one more time but after that cut ties.

There is a nuance to this though, he’s not saying hire mediocre women and minorities. He’s saying think about where you are placing ads, advertise in more diverse places e.g. sites for women back to work following Mat leave, call recruiters who have experience head hunting diverse talent. This way the pool of candidates is wider. Then when after the rounds of interviews if you have 2 strong candidates. If one has protected characteristics hire that one.

Your company has it right, and that's exactly how the recruiting should work. But sadly that's not the case in many companies, especially smaller ones that might not have the funds or the contacts to advertise more widely or pay recruiters. And of course many simply get it wrong through lack of expertise or awareness.

We've learned from our mistake, and we are now taking the route that yours does, and finding less well known and more targeted places to advertise vacancies. But there are still companies and organisations that are getting it wrong, and employees of theirs who are rightfully annoyed when their workload is affected or the optics make them feel that their prospects in the company are affected. Jane's might be one of them.

Thanks for your thoughtful responses especially @BorisJohnsonatemyhampster you have explained how and why affirmative action for women and minorities is important more eloquently and effectively than I could. Im quite disheartened and surprised by so many of you saying “Jane may be right” or defending her but I suppose I shouldn’t be, ignorance and racism are everywhere and better it’s out in the open so it can be opposed rather than hidden and festering.

I feel like I was already really clear with her but much of what previous posters have said will help me explain to her better why I disagree with her so after I let it sit for a few days I may try to speak with her again.

@Blueblisters if I understand what you’ve written you think I would end a friendship just for online white ally points? What a nasty thing to say. And I’m not white, or British though I’ve lived here for many years, and in my country of origin my ethnic group is massively targeted for discrimination. So perhaps my sympathies lie with the less privileged more than you might prefer but I think that says a lot more negative about you than me.

Maybe people say this type of shit because they’re racist.

“finding positive discrimination is not necessarily racist. Her wording and general attitude sounds pretty racist though which is different”

^I agree with this.