What’s the general MN verdict on donor eggs?

[Sortilege]

The general critical re-examination of surrogacy is quite evident, and I have my own views on that, which I’ll keep quiet for the purposes of this thread.

Now I find myself chewing over other fertility treatment. I’ve had fertility treatment myself and so have family members. So I have a sense of how private clinics put you on a conveyor belt and normalise things.

What is the general view on donor eggs & embryos (implanted into the birth mother and gestated by her)?

Im trying really hard not to bias the result so have tossed a coin to assign YABU/YANBU to viewpoints. Don’t read into that.

YANBU = Donor gametes are ethically fine.
YABU = Donor gametes are problematic.

To be honest I don’t think what the prospective parents have been through, changes the ethics of donor gametes as a stand-alone thing. The suffering of the parent isn’t inversely proportional to how ethical having a donor gamete child is - they’re sort of two separate issues if you see what I mean.

It already has and that’s why we have the laws and regulations we do

Globally I'd say the laws and regulations leave a LOT to be desired

Yes I think that’s true of most sources, but at least for an organised survey, the link will have been widely shared, including on social media, which means anyone with a strong view could have participated.

Ditto.

Altruistic surrogacy absolutely treats children as commodities. Just because it might be free, doesn’t mean it’s OK.

I think good research needs to be done to look at the outcomes for donor conceived children. If it's banned, then in future they wouldn't exist. How do they feel about that? I think there are a lot of opinions on this thread, but not from the people actually living with this experience.

I think we need to remember that what people see as a "normal" family, parent, who they are related to, who they are linked to etc is quite culturally varied. So I would keep an open mind about it.

There are ethical issues so should be regulation.

I think all parents are ultimately making a decision about what they want, not what their child wants. My child didn't ask to be born either. And many people bring children into less than perfect scenarios for their own (selfish) reasons. I imagine a lot of those children on balance are happy to exist, but you'd have to ask them.

Of course I would have felt able to say no!

At the time I wanted desperately to say yes but was unable to, and now that the children are grown up, I am glad they were anonymously conceived.

It is possible to have feelings which gradually change over a 20 year period, and after lots of thought and experience.

There are reasons for anonymous donation, and detailed medical histories are part of the anonymous donation process, at least they were for my friend.

@Sortilege I started to change my mind after watching a few documentaries concerning children born of donor sperm. Many of them were clearly struggling with their identity. This prompted me to think a lot deeper about the matter. I also worry about the exploitative nature of egg donation having been through ivf myself. It was gruelling. This should never be allowed to be done for money or for equivalent compensation.

Sorry to hear that and I’m glad it worked out for you. FWIW, I think there is zero chance donor conception for medical reasons would ever be unavailable.

I don’t really subscribe to the idea that only those directly involved can debate an ethical issue, though. You came about as close to donor conception as I did, and, if anything, I think it makes it harder for us to be objective about all of the issues.

It’s certainly not “shameful” for individuals to have a view, or for society to get involved in ethical debates. What would be shameful is to leave things to laissez faire policy development.

Whilst I can understand your feelings, the fact is that many many women experience difficulties in conceiving or carrying a pregnancy to term.

I agree in regards to surrogacy and I think there are issues with commercial egg donation in particular as it targets young poor women or women desperate for fertility treatment themselves.

However, the rights of donor conceived children have been discussed objectively in this country already which is why they have the legal rights they do. I respect that you may not agree with the outcomes, but it definitely has been discussed objectively, probably many many times as it’s not a new concept, by experts across many fields and the consensus was that people should be allowed to use donor eggs and sperm.

So I don’t see why anyone wouldn’t go for that option if they needed to and could afford to unless they had a moral objection to it. There’s not really (AFAIK) any strong evidence to say donor conceived children overall, suffer from how they were conceived.

Someone I know donated eggs whilst undergoing IVF, basically the clinic did some sort of ‘deal’ where you would get a free round of IVF if you donated eggs at the same time! Not sure whether this is still legal practice? It felt a bit off as I think they were more motivated by their own desperation for a child and the fact that would help significantly with the costs. The donor eggs lead to a successful pregnancy and she finds it a bit uncomfortable that she has an unknown ‘biological’ child somewhere the same age as her other child.

Her body, her choice.

What one woman chooses to take out of her body and another put into her body is their business and not yours.

If you make surrogacy/ donation illegal it will only go underground and endanger women.

Foetuses don't have rights and eggs, sperm and uteruses certainly don't.

If you would ban surrogacy/donation because the subsequent child might not know her mother or father then you had better ban one night stands where the man doesn't leave his forwarding details, make it a serious offence for women not to put the name of a deadbeat, violent but known father on the birth certificate and end adoptions and removals into care where the birth parents are written out of the child's life.

The most important thing for a child is to be loved and surrogate/donated children are. They are born and they are blessed.

Thanks for answering.

I might have a look on YouTube for documentaries.

*As the mother of a child conceived using a donor egg, I'm just rocking up to let you know you've basically invited a load of women to say incredibly offensive things about something I very much doubt they have any personal experience of.

If you're pleased with that, then crack on. Well done, you*

= my emotions on this are really strong and I don't want other people talking about it in case they disagree with me.

Sorry, not how it works.

As others have said, unless you’ve been in this position I think its shameful to judge

The experience of people directly affected by an issue is important but other people are still allowed to have an opinion on the ethics of a situation.

Your last comment is pretty offensive tbh. Some of us have thought long and hard about having a child, being a good parent, providing for them financially and emotionally.

Yes, that feels like unfair pressure at a vulnerable time, doesn’t it?

What one woman chooses to take out of her body and another put into her body is their business and not yours

Not if there's an unequal power dynamic open to exploitation

would you make that comment about organs?

Imagine if hers hadn’t been successful…

I also find it unethical when people deliberately choose a foreign clinic with anonymity laws so their child cannot find their biological parent when they get older

basically depriving them of that in order to fulfil a ‘fantasy’

There hasn't been long enough time for us to know how children conceived from donor eggs/sperm feel as they age.

I am very much loved and have an amazing, confused and blended family. Growing up I would have told anyone that none of it mattered - my mum and dad were my parents and they cherished me.

Over 50 years later, I feel differently. I feel connected to my mother but with my father, I felt like I was a second class child as I wasn't his. I don't need to know who my sperm donor is. Knowing that my father loved me as much as his biological children doesn't help because deep down, the older I get, the less I feel this is true. The more I age, the more I feel lost and missing something. I still feel obliged to protect my mother's feelings by telling her that none of it makes a difference to me - I suspect a lot of donor children and adopted children say this and mean it when they are younger but find their perspective changes as they age. I don't judge my parents for the choices they made but it's me that lives with the consequence of it and it weighs heavy times. It's not something I think of frequently but it's there. Would I feel that way if raised by two biological parents ? I don't know.

I think things freely given, out of love, between family/close friends is ok. Whether surrogacy by a sibling/mum/cousin, donor eggs from a sibling etc.

Where money changes hands there's just so much potential for exploitation, I would just always worry that the donor didn't truly want to give those eggs.

I know from experience that a child who is the product of a donor gamete can have the most loving, wonderful parents, never want for anything and basically have 'the perfect upbringing' and still have major issues stemming from the fact that they know that one of their parents isn't their biological parent.

Humans are kind of wired to want to know this stuff.

I also disagree with egg donation having seen how some women are exploited. It's also quite hard on the body with the drugs needed to stimulate and harvest the eggs, and can even cause strokes and other medical issues. Very different to spaffing into a little plastic cup.

I don’t think many people do that for the anonymity laws, they do it because the laws in this country have led to a huge shortage of donor eggs and sperm because the vast majority of people donating don’t want kids turning up on their doorstep 18 years later. For a lot of people it’s down to cost as well, I know a couple who went to Greece for their donated embryo as it was half the price.

so, as I asked upthread, if it’s ok to essentially buy a child through surrogacy/donation and only those who have been through infertility are allowed an opinion, then why is it wrong to buy an organ such as a kidney? After all it all comes down to their body their choice when it comes to the donation doesn’t it?

@Sortilege Stacy Dooley has a DNA programme on IPlayer which sometimes touches on these issues. On NowTV there was a documentary about Doctor in the 60s in the US who impregnated tonnes of women with his own sperm.