What’s the general MN verdict on donor eggs?

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The general critical re-examination of surrogacy is quite evident, and I have my own views on that, which I’ll keep quiet for the purposes of this thread.

Now I find myself chewing over other fertility treatment. I’ve had fertility treatment myself and so have family members. So I have a sense of how private clinics put you on a conveyor belt and normalise things.

What is the general view on donor eggs & embryos (implanted into the birth mother and gestated by her)?

Im trying really hard not to bias the result so have tossed a coin to assign YABU/YANBU to viewpoints. Don’t read into that.

YANBU = Donor gametes are ethically fine.
YABU = Donor gametes are problematic.

Huh??

Gosh that’s devastating. 💔 Do you think that’s a minority view amongst children or donor gametes or the norm? Are you willing to say more about why? Do you genuinely feel it would be better that you didn’t exist? I’m just trying to wrap my head around it.

Ultimately I wouldn’t just hand a stranger a baby, so I wouldn’t donate my eggs. Yes they would probably be used by a loving and responsible person(s), but it isn’t guaranteed and I would always be wondering if the baby I helped to create was safe and loved.

I'd feel the same.

I read plenty of stories of women who "gave up" after 2 rounds and just moved onto to donors because they wanted a baby at all costs and they wanted one now.

I call absolute BS on this. It's not been my experience at all on any of the fertility boards I've been on. In all my 8 years ttc I didn't come across one person hinting at this. In fact I've found it's a very difficult decision to move to donor eggs, women want their own biological child and using donor eggs is a last resort and a route that the vast majority of couples don't take. Any threads I read on donor conception was actually quite the opposite and nobody just 'gives up' because they want a baby right away. What you've said is simply not true 🤨

So true. Nobody "just moves on to donors" unless they've been told it's extremely unlikely they'll ever get pregnant with their own eggs. And even then many will choose to explore adoption or choose to remain childless (as DH and I did).

I'm also a donor conceived person (in my 40's). Back then it was completely anonymous, no records were kept and my parents were told to never tell me (which they didn't until I found out on a commercial DNA site). I can't even begin to outline the trauma this has caused. I couldn't look at my face in the mirror for about 6 months after finding out. Every time I walked into a crowded place I imagined that every man I met was my bio father/brother. I'm processing it better over time but it makes me so angry when people only look at this from the point of view of the infertile parents or the donor. The main person who really matters is the donor conceived person as they had no say in having half their biological links severed. This has forever ruined my relationship with the parents who brought me up, I will never be able to trust them or think of them in the same way again.

The donor conceived community is growing (although there are few charities that actually represent us) and there is beginning to be more awareness of the damage this fertility industry can do to us. Unfortunately, when we venture out into the world and express out opinions we are usually shut down straight away (often by recipient parents) and told "but you were so wanted", you should be grateful you wouldn't exist otherwise, it's love that makes a family. Debates like this one are good as slowly people start to hear all the voices in the debate and not just the louder, more powerful voices of the parents.

Just jumping in. It's much more complex for dcp than saying I wish I didn't exist. Of course I don't, I generally have a happy life and this is only one aspect of that. However, do I wish someone hadn't played God back when I was born and separated me from half of my biological family - yes. Do I wish more respect had been/is shown to my natural, completely understandable desire to know what my father looks like, my medical history, my siblings - yes. There are a range of views among DCP, generally it's harder for those who were never told until later in life as that adds in the feeling of having been lied to all your life. However, I think where recipient parents treat the subject respectfully and don't allow their own desires to own "their child" and pretend the other half of their biology doesn't exist outcomes are better on the whole (although for some there still is trauma). I would advocate completely open, known donors and force recipient parents to be open by registering the fact of donor conception on the birth certificate.

I’m donor conceived. My father sold his sperm and I was the result.

I haven’t read the whole thread but I’m very struck by the posters who angrily denounce the OP for daring to ask the question. It’s very striking that their desire to have a child is deemed to be so all-consuming that it trumps any feelings that donor conceived children may have.

To answer the question in the OP: giving away your children to be raised by strangers is wrong. Selling them is worse.

As for people who think that just because a woman gives birth to a baby, genetics don’t matter, that’s also wrong.

Imagine not looking like the rest of your family. Being different from them in other ways. Feeling like you don’t fit it but not knowing why. Then, if you find out the truth of your origins, being deprived of knowing anything about one of your own parents.

It’s very complicated reading the views of those donor conceived who are against donor conception.

for example as @DonorConceivedMe says Imagine not looking like the rest of your family. Being different from them in other ways.Feeling like you don’t fit it but not knowing why. Then, if you find out the truth of your origins, being deprived of knowing anything about one of your own parents

if a child is told from being a baby, fully aware of their origins and having the ability to read a letter from the egg donor about why they donated and the ability to read books about similar family set ups (children books), go to meet ups with other similar families and meet the egg donor at 18 then the above situation not apply - would the trauma be different or not there at all?

i do believe that anonymous donation has to end and the child needs to be centered completely. We were exploring egg donation after 5 failed rounds of IVF. We discussed at length whether we would be able to put the child first. For example, they recommend telling childrens teacher in school as when child knows from being a baby they could discuss it at school and so teacher would know and support them instead of thinking an overactive child imagination. We live in a very small village and this would mean having to be ok with the whole village knowing. Also having to Come to terms with raising the child but having to be supportive and help the child find the egg donor when older and if they both wanted to, facilitating and being in favour of them having a type of parent child relationship no matter how hard it would be for me. We had many discussions about how we would have to put the child first including having an egg donor from a country where English was the first language so when child did contact the donor they could communicate.

I think more needs to be done to understand the feelings of donors and the children conceived of donors.

a terrible example of the commodification of women's bodies

sums it all up for me.

But it doesn't sum it all up. That is one aspect. But it is also a terrible example of putting the desires of adults (with money and power) above the rights of a child to know their biological family. To be able to look into the mirror and know where they came from.

Being told about one’s origins won’t take away from the fact that the donor conceived child has been deliberately deprived of the right to be raised by his or her own parents. The crumb of comfort of being told that you can contact your own mother or father when you’re 18 doesn’t make up for that loss. And who knows if records will even be kept up to date wrt the parents’ contact details?

I’m not using the word “donor” which is designed to make it seem like blood donation and gloss over the truth of the genetic relations. The “egg donor” is the mother. The “sperm donor” is the father.

It's weird isn't it Donorconceivedme we sympathise with kids with deadbeat dads who don't want to see them. We sympathise with kids whose dads died before they were born even if they were raised by a loving stepdad. We also sympathise with families where there has been an ivf mix-up (where the families are given the wrong babies and raise babies not genetically related to them for a period until they realise there has been a mix-up) and yet we deliberately create children via donor conception who will not grow up with and possibly never know one of their biological parents and we tell them they ought to be grateful, they wouldn't have existed without donor conception. It's all wrong and the discussion does not centre the needs of the child in the way it should.

www.instagram.com/p/CduKfj9sJno/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y%3D&fbclid=IwAR1cNZ0oGQm3FdQwJPIsSYiEfbSmAdtCgaohDvuQp6XS_LV_4xBY56gUBv0

Something I just saw on one of the many sites for donor conceived people.

@DonorConceivedMe They aren't being deliberately deprived the right to be raised by their biological parents though are they, because they simply wouldn't exist if it wasn't for being conceived this way. They were NEVER going to be raised by the people whose body made them, that hasn't been taken away. What they have been given is life where it wouldn't otherwise have been? I can't see how it is any different in that one respect, to being adopted rather than aborted?
And the donor isn't the mother no. Being a mother isn't about being biologically able to create a life, it is so so much more. That's why people with absent 'fathers' ofter refer to them as donors. I know my case is a bit different to what people are objecting too as the child my friend conceived from my egg will know me and all family so won't have the questions but I am 100% not her mother. I didn't get sick carrying her, I didn't feed and keep her safe in the womb, I didn't give up certain foods and drinks to keep her safe (well briefly during the process to retrieve my egg but not in the same way for months on end). I didn't go through hours of labour or spend soo many sleepless nights with her, soothe her when she is hurt, hug her when she is tantrumming, give up part of my career to raise her, sacrifice my body to bring her into the world. She is not my daughter as much as i care about her and im certainly not her mother

But is is your genetic daughter. She shares half your DNA, if she went onto 23andMe it’s your family that would show up. She’ll look in a mirror and see your eyes, your face shape, your hair colour. That doesn’t take anything away from her loving parents, but for some children it doesn’t matter how wonderful their parents are, they want a link with their biological relations too. I acknowledge it’s different in your case because she’ll have access to you growing up. She still might want a connection with you and your family far more than she would with another family friend. Or she might not care at all. But I think it should be for the child to decide on the emphasis they put on their genetic background, not the adults.

I also don’t think there’s much of a comparison to adoption. When a child is removed from their birth family, it’s to reduce the harm to a child that already exists, not creating a child for adoptive parents. There’s a reason that there’s support (or should be) for families of adopted children. Adoption is least worst option for children who are living in terrible abusive households, or those whose parents are unable or unwilling to care for them. In a perfect world, there would be no need for adoption.

That's a terrible argument. The idea that you should be grateful and happy for however you came about because you wouldn't exist otherwise is a very bad one.

Your feelings as a donor or as a commissioning parent doesn't mean you know anything about the feelings of children born this way, and you don't get to speak for them.

Hear Hear Cupidstunt. On all of the donor conception groups I am a member of this language of "not having existed without DC" (and therefore the implication that you should be grateful) is considered to be deeply offensive to DC People. Obviously your situation looks ideal Frazzledmum in terms of how donor conception start, that you are there, that you are a known donor etc but as the genetic mother of this child you really should explore this from her point of view a bit. Listen to how DC people view donor conception - there is a wide range of views. Try not to frame this for her. Ultimately she will decide how she wishes to view you and her social mother, what she wishes to call you and whether she is happy for the arrangement that the two of you made.

I'm not trying to speak for them, I'm really not. I'm just saying they are being deprived the right to be brought up by their birth parents any more than someone who is adopted is, and people aren't all from abusive homes who are adopted @toastofthetown, I was talking about people who fall pregnant by accident and don't want the child, people who chose adoption over abortion.
I don't mean to sound like I'm belittling the child's feelings at all, it was a very important part of the decision process for us that the child knew who I was from the start as I agree, they should have that right to know. I just think it's wrong to call me her true mother, I'm just not. I'm biologically her mother, but not her true mother, genetics don't make a family. The title mother is a very special one to me and I don't feel I deserve that over my friend when she has done all the mothering and I have done so little. It's an insult to her.
I do not think anonymous donation is right, but donation in general I cannot disagree with. I get they may have the need to know their biological background but to say they shouldn't exist because their genetic parent isn't raising them is wrong, just as saying it for those whose father's are no longer on the scene would be.
To be honest I am confused as I was told at the time that legally they have the right to have my details anyway? Is that just a UK thing?

@mucky123 I just want to add too that my friend and I are extremely close, like family. Her daughter will always be welcome to be part of my family because I consider her that due to my relationship with my friend. I will answer any questions she has and fully intend to validate her views as does my friend. I dont think anyone should be 'grateful' just be alive but I will explain that although she did not come from my friend biologically, she only exists because of her and her love for her. And that is what she and any child should be grateful for, the love and sacrifices made by the person who raised them in exactly the same way I would expect someone to be grateful for a stepdad who has always been round and the way I'm grateful to my own parents- not for conceiving me but for everything they ever did for me

This is so helpful. Thank you for explaining. Completely respect and agree with all your points ❤️.

Oh my gosh that’s terrible that was hidden from you. Do you think you would have felt differently if you had known the truth from the start and had been able to know the identity of your donor? These voices and perspectives are SO important. Thank you for sharing your experience

Thing is adoption is a very different thing to any kind of assisted reproduction.
The common factor is that a child come from it, who may have very mixed feelings about their background and heritage.
We do need to listen to their voices.
It's even harder for them to speak if they are told their whole existence is special and they were so wanted and loved. How hard must it be to speak against that they have nonetheless felt unhappy?
Frazzledmum you say i'm biologically her mother, but not her true mother, genetics don't make a family. The title mother is a very special one to me and I don't feel I deserve that over my friend when she has done all the mothering and I have done so little. It's an insult to her which is all well and good but still it's all about the parents not the child. What if a child in similar circumstances turns round and says that the genetics actually really do matter to them? Would you tell them they are wrong? I am talking hypothetically and not about your own situation.
I really don't mean to be unkind but it's still not centering the child or their feelings.
There's a gulf of difference between being existing and not approving of the mechanism of your existence - the argument that you wouldn't have existed otherwise is still denying these people a proper voice.

To take my eldest as an example. He didn't see his bio father for most of his childhood. He left when he was too young to remember and the only father he has known is his step father.

He's been loved and raised by his step father.

Yet he has loved getting to know his bio father and seeing his bio paternal family (they now see each other). His bio father has played no part in his life beyond conception and was around when he was a baby. So really, a sperm donor. But to my son, it is important that he knows him. He delights in any physical and personality similarities (as he does me). He doesn't have that with his step father. He is really interested in the family history and photos.

So he didn't 'miss out' on a father figure but having that contact is very important to him. A bio parent is much more than a donor to a child, despite what the adults organising the creation of that child may think.