What’s the general MN verdict on donor eggs?

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The general critical re-examination of surrogacy is quite evident, and I have my own views on that, which I’ll keep quiet for the purposes of this thread.

Now I find myself chewing over other fertility treatment. I’ve had fertility treatment myself and so have family members. So I have a sense of how private clinics put you on a conveyor belt and normalise things.

What is the general view on donor eggs & embryos (implanted into the birth mother and gestated by her)?

Im trying really hard not to bias the result so have tossed a coin to assign YABU/YANBU to viewpoints. Don’t read into that.

YANBU = Donor gametes are ethically fine.
YABU = Donor gametes are problematic.

I’m so sorry that you feel this way and it’s devastating to hear such perspectives. I can’t agree with you that gamete donors are “parents” though. Parent is a social role, it can’t be reduced to a biological descriptor.

@DonorConceivedMe I know my adopted friend would be very affronted at you saying her mother is not her mother just because they don’t share genetic material. I would say many adopted children and mothers would be upset at you saying they are not mother and child because of their DNA.

@Beamur I do see your point. I just guess I feel very protective of my friend. Her journey to motherhood was hideous, heartbreaking, awful. No one should have to go through that. She is an absolutely amazing mum, honestly probably better than I am with patience. Her daughter is her world. And to say she will never properly be a mum despite even carrying her child and giving birth to her (and her husband being the bio father) just seems so incredibly insensitive and hurtful. She is a mum and the daughter wouldn't exist without her.
But of course the child's feelings are important and I apologise sincerely if it sounds as if I implied they weren't. If she feels genetics are important then we will explore that at the time, we will always be family my friend and I. My children are aware she is technically their half sibling and she will be too (she's still a baby but it won't be kept from her). That was important to both my friend and I and actually the reason we went down the route of me being the donor
So yes, the child's feelings are important, but I don't think that means you have to exclude the parents feelings at the same time. My friend didn't ask for this to be the only way she could have a child either, she had to go through hell to get here and I sincerely hope her daughter doesn't just wipe all that love out because she shares the same genes as me instead. I will always be here, but as an extra not a replacement

@mucky123 I don’t think anyone is saying donor conceived children need to be grateful to be born. But it’s a fact that without their mother they wouldn’t exist.

To answer the question in the OP: giving away your children to be raised by strangers is wrong

If a man donates his sperm, it’s used to create embryos yet none implant and result in a baby has he given away his children to be raised by strangers? I don’t see how he has. So how is donating an egg or sperm giving away a child if without a successful implantation and a mother who grows and births the baby the child wouldn’t exist.

There are many ways to be a Mother, or a Father.

You and your family / friendship sound wonderful. IMO you have nothing to apologise for- I don’t think you were dismissive and your points are so valid. I have no personal experience on which to draw so I can’t claim any authority to my perspective but what you have described Sounfs so healthy and wonderful to me; and a perfect context in which to raise a child. ❤️

That sounds incredibly hard @mucky123 - really disorienting and traumatic.

Do you think it would have been easier if you’d been told all along, as per current advice?

I suppose the parents’ and donors voices being louder was inevitable for a generation or two, but donor sperm has been used for so long, and society unclenched 30 years ago so it is time donor conceived adults, of all opinions, felt heard,

Thanks for posting despite the naysayers.

Really good points here. We treat hospital mixups where someone has taken home the wrong baby as a terrible thing - because a genetically related family and baby have been separated. But treat donor conception as though the genetics don't matter at all,all to satisfy the desires of would be parents.

Thank you @Tandora ❤️ Nothing about it is ideal but then I dont believe life is! But watching the two of them interact and seeing what a happy family they are, I don't regret it and I hope she grows to feel the same way x

I think the point here is that it is up to DonorconceivedMe and other DCP to frame the terms of reference themselves. I have my mum and dad. My dad is my dad, he's looked after me his whole life, walked me down the aisle etc. Nothing takes away from that (although the lies have detracted a bit from my current feelings). However, I too object to the term donor. My biological father (I know some prefer genetic) is my parent's sperm donor. He's not mine. He never gave me anything. He is purely and simply my biological father - the person with whom I share 51.2% of my dna. More DNA than I share with my mother or my own kids. I don't think I'd call him a parent though but other DCP might.
I do not like the term donor personally as it lessens what has happened, allows people to minimise the relationship.

In my view it's perfectly possible to have a 3-way (or more) family. My Mum (and her family), my dad (and his family that I am very close to and consider my family despite no bio connections) and my biological father (and the siblings that I have through him). One doesn't detract from the other and we should stop trying to see children as possessions "I brought them up they are MY child" not the donor's child, what did they do? Rather we should instead be open to what they want to frame things as.

I'm sure when social workers try to work through modern adoption these days they emphasise that the birth family may continue to have importance to the adopted child (even if they are adopted at birth). They keep memory boxes and letters from birth parents. I'm sure that if an adopted child wishes to refer to her genetic parents as her birth parents or whatever no one educated in this area would seek to shout them down.

@mucky123 I agree completely but I don’t think it works in the opposite direction - so @DonorConceivedMe saying you haven’t been brought up by your dad, your dad is the sperm donor, your dad sold you to strangers. You clearly don’t consider your dad a stranger or that you have been sold to who you regard as your parents.

similarly you can’t tell adopted children that their parents aren’t their parents as they don’t share genetic material if sharing genetics is the definition of who is the parent.

Is there ever concern about the risk of half siblings unknowingly entering into an incestuous relationship?

How is this risk mitigated?

I agree Absolutely that no one should be shouted down. It’s is SO enlightening and important to here from DCP , I have followed that insta you linked so thank you for that.

It is absolutely fair for @DonorConceivedMe to define her own experience in her own terms- who she considers her parents to be etc. That’s her own experience/ reality / feelings - they are valid.

However, no one has the right to define these terms for others. I can’t agree with a perspective that says that gamete donation is equivalent to selling a child, or that DNA defines parenthood, although I do think it is important to hear that this is how some people feel.

I would like to thank the people who were conceived this way for sharing their point of view. If there is to be any reframing of ethics around this issue, I think theirs are the most important voices to take into account.

I don't know if the rules are the same for egg donors, but for sperm donors the sperm can only go to ten recipient families. Can't remember when that was brought in though - probably 1991 with the creation of the HFEA

@mucky123 pretty much summed up my position in their 08:24 post, especially about putting donor conception on the birth certificate.

I'm so sorry you were never told @mucky123 - unfortunately not uncommon for our age bracket (I'm mid-30s)

I have read all the posts on this thread with close attention and great interest. I would like to thank everyone who posted, even the people who tried to shut the discussion down. The violence of their reaction is a significant part of the debate.

I have been concerned for some time about the rise of surrogacy, especially where one or even both the contributing gametes are not those of the intended parents. I’m going to have to think more about the use of a non familiar gamete now ( and I don’t see any difference , morally, between the male and the female). Hearing other people’s voices is very useful in forming a view.

I would like to thank everyone who posted, even the people who tried to shut the discussion down. The violence of their reaction is a significant part of the debate.

Hmm. I wasn’t expecting that and was hoping more considered, thoughtful posts from parents by donation would appear to balance it out. I agree it’s not great advertising that so many posters just wanted to shut down the conversation. Unfortunate.

I must say I think the implications counselling we were given was the final straw that tipped me against proceeding. Maybe it varies in quality, but ours was very perfunctory, and I felt that the implications were being minimised more than explored. It wasn’t “enough” to make me feel comfortable enough to proceed, anyway,

I saw an ethics column on the NYT site earlier, in which the columnist was advocating (amongst other comments) for anonymised medical data to be made available to DCPs through a database. I do feel more consideration could throw up ideas like that to mitigate some of the issues. It’s immensely complicated, though, I appreciate,

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen

I’m going to have to think more about the use of a non familiar gamete now ( and I don’t see any difference , morally, between the male and the female)

I'm aware you're not the only one who's said this on this thread but you are the most recent, hence my tagging of you. Do you not see the moral difference in the effects on the 'donor'.

Essentially having a wank vs weeks of preparatory hormones, an uncomfortable procedure, and recovery time (all of which carry risks that can't be ignored and can potentially have lifelong effects). Not to mention the point I made earlier of the sexists framing of it, women should be kind and altruistic to strangers and donate their eggs as a gift - the same marketing isn't targeted at men. Plus the targeting of young women, who often need the money, and the misleading of them about how 'easy' to process is (see my earlier post about marketing at a university freshers fair).

I think it should be normalised with stricter vetting and protections around it.

In ideal circumstances a relative or friend donating. If not, then the person should be checked they are mentally sound, have their medical history taken/genetic checks etc., supported through the process and happy to be contacted at a later date by the child.

Really it seems logical to use an egg from a young and healthy woman, vs somebody in 40s with known history of fertility issues for ivf purposes.

If someone is happy to donate, as per sperm donation, it seems fine to me and more logical than somebody approaching midlife going through countless procedures to no avail with bigger risk of poor egg quality.

@BackOnTheBandWagon and @Tralalalalalala50
I can answer this for you.

There are clinics that do donor cycles privately funded where the donors are solely used for one recipient only. I know of someone who paid an extortionate sum of money for this to ensure eggs and sperm from the male & female donor were exclusive to her as the recipient. An awful lot of legal paperwork and documents at huge financial cost but provided the reassurance required.

But what if the donors had more children? The recipient can't stop them can she?

Thank you for sharing this. I find it very poignant that you protect your mother's feelings by saying none of it makes a difference to you, and that you have a sense of something missing. I have a friend whose child was conceived from a donor embryo from Eastern Europe. He's too young to know the details but I feel a sadness around him, a sense of him being transplanted into another life and culture to which he is not really connected, that threads have been broken. I don't know if that makes sense. He's a lovely, happy child, there's just this feeling I get sometimes.

@DonorConceivedMe I may be barking up the wrong tree here.

However, the way you’re talking is like you were a babe in arms, untimely ripped from your loving parents who so desperately wanted you and were deprived of a relationship with them by this action.

The fact is donation of eggs and sperm, as with adoption, is the choice of the biological parent. They make an active choice to give up a physical and emotional relationship with their child. Whatever the circumstances that is their choice. And the people who gave you a chance at life and who so desperately wanted you are the ones who presumably had you through ivf.

I realise it is disappointing to not have a relationship with your biological Dad or to know your exact origins. To make it clear - I think parents should tell children the story of their adoption/ivf conception from an early age and that the children have access to the details of their biological parents upon adulthood if that information is forthcoming…

Is what you’re saying that you think all embryo donation should cease to prevent people from having to go through this deprivation of relationship with biological parents? And how do you think that assertion marries to people having autonomy over their own bodies?